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26. Sunday, July 16, 2006 7:43 AM |
Raymond |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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Hi Susan, I don't know what the Pope will do.I mentioned that I thought he should withdraw the Soldano message.The Pope doesn't take my counsel, I'm not even Catholic. : ) He must know what the Vatican via it's state dept. puts out and his past messages are anti-US-Isreali. I doubt he is so detached that he doesn't know the content of this last vatican message. Could there be a change and a house cleaning in progress with the Soldano crew? Here is a portion of an M. Malkin piece. First there is a reprint of Fallaci's powerful indictment from Dec 2002. It is well worth reading, maybe you have ? and then this portion below O. Fallaci's article: "I know Fallaci must be absolutely incensed--as am I--by the Vatican's condemnation of Israel. Douglas Urbanski, who has inside Vatican contacts, reports that the views expressed by Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, who issued the statement while the Pope was on vacation, are renegade views and asks the question that needs to be asked: Does the Pope back Sodano's statement? Urbanski points to this story on the rift between Pope Benedict XVI and Sodano. He'll have more tonight as a guest host on the Rusty Humphries show. Tune in. Relevant: The murder of Father Santoro The Pope takes on Islam * Pope Benedict on Islam and the West " Oriana's article and the whole post titled " I stand with Isreal ": http://michellemalkin.com/
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27. Sunday, July 16, 2006 8:44 AM |
nuart |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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The surprise was the condemnation of Israel and the moral equivalency -- "blind tit for tat" language. But it isn't so much "surprise" as it is disappointment. Kinda reminds me of the tit for tat language of a bumpersticker I've seen: "Why do we KILL people to convince people it's wrong to KILL people?" Raymond, that was an interesting assortment of articles! I read everything Oriana Fallaci writes but hadn't seen that article since it was written. I thought the friend of Pope Benedict in his interview with Hugh Hewitt was a good one. His take on the Pope's belief that Islam has no wiggle room in interpretations because of it being the "direct word of God" and the lack of one head religious cleric to guide interpretations is something I am in complete accord with. Perhaps that one short paragraph sums up the source of many of the problems the world faces today. It's all pretty depressing. Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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28. Sunday, July 16, 2006 10:02 AM |
Raymond |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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One hope for the Catholic Church is that the change in governance ( Dias, Lajola, and Lombardi )and especially the appointment of Cardinal Bertone to replace Soldano as Sec. of Sate will be positive. Popes tend to defer governance and politics, so the new people are key, I think.
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29. Sunday, July 16, 2006 11:27 AM |
nuart |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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What follows is the stated intent of Sheik Nasrallah. I don't see why we shouldn't take him at his passionate word. Same with Ahmadinejad, Bin Laden or Zawahiri or Abu Bakar Bashir. Here is what Bakar Bashir said in an interview from his prison cell where he was serving a 30 month sentence for conspiring in the killing of 200+ in a nightclub in Bali. Indonesia, showing its resolve and demonstrating just how seriously they view such offenses, cut four months from this overly stringent sentence and he is now free.
SA: So this fight will never end? ABB: Never. This fight is compulsory. Muslims who don't hate America sin. What I mean by America is George Bush's regime. There is no iman [belief] if one doesn't hate America. SA: How can the American regime and its policies change? ABB: We'll see. As long as there is no intention to fight us and Islam continues to grow there can be peace. This is the doctrine of Islam. Islam can't be ruled by others. Allah's law must stand above human law. There is no [example] of Islam and infidels, the right and the wrong, living together in peace.
They loudly and frequently broadcast their intentions. Are they an insignificant fringe element? Maybe in the larger scheme of things, Hezbollah is a gnat of an army. But so is Al Qaeda. Think about the massive disruption possible from these disparate terrorist groups with a loose ideological link. They can supercede governments in Lebanon or Somalia or Sudan or Afghanistan or Russia or Indonesia or the Phillipines. Think about the bad choices available when dealing with these groups who live and kill amid their wives and children in civilian neighborhoods. Think about the increased power and organizational infrastructure that Hezbollah, for one, has achieved over 20 years of tacit toleration by the war weary government of Lebanon. Such alliances cannot last forever. Think about the plausible deniablity claimed by states such as Syria or Iran. Point is, even if Nasrallahs and bin Ladens and Ahmadinejads are not capable of persuading 1.3 billion Muslims to "Globalize the Intifada" or to "Join the International Jihad," they are very capable of wreaking havoc on all of us through widespread disruption. Think about tomorrow when the price of one barrel of oil is expected to rise to $80. Something happened since the last World War. it takes a very long time to process these changes. Does it sound familiar that Japan bombed Pearl Harbor after a US oil embargo? I think I heard something like that. Susan Leader: Hezbollah Has 'Complete Strength' The Associated Press Sunday, July 16, 2006; 12:02 PM
BEIRUT, Lebanon -- Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah urged Arabs and Muslims worldwide to support his guerrillas, saying Sunday that his group is fighting Israel on their behalf and that the battle has just begun.
A confident-looking Nasrallah said in a speech aired on his Al-Manar TV that Hezbollah guerrillas were at their "full strength" and that the group had "no choice" but to hit the northern Israeli city of Haifi with rockets Sundayh after Israel struck civilians in Lebanon.
"As long as the enemy acts without limitations, it is our right to act similarly," he said.
Nasrallah said he taped the message at 1 p.m. Sunday, disspelling reports that he had been hurt in the massive Israeli bombing of his headquarters overnight Sunday as some Israeli reports said. The message was aired about six hours after that time.
"We are in our full strength and power. We will choose the place and the time, and we will not let the enemy impose the means or place to use their weapons," he said.
Facing criticism by some in Lebanon that Hezbollah dragged the country into a fight with Israel by snatching two soldiers last week, Nasrallah sought to rally Lebanese and the Arab annd Islamic world behind his fighters., painted the battle as a chance for the Arab and Islamic world to deal a defeat to Israel.
"You Arab and Muslim people must take a position toward your future, the future of your children," he said. "The peoples of the Arab and Islamic world have a historic opportunity to score a defeat against the Zionist enemy ... We are providing the example."
"Hezbollah is not fighting a battle for Hezbollah or even for Lebanon but for the Islamic nation," he said.
He denied Israeli claims that Iran had sent members of its elite Revolutionary Guards to help Hezbollah.
"I completely deny the presence of any Iranian troops," he said. "Lebanese are the ones firing these weapons .. They talk about Iranians to diminish and humiliate us as Lebanese and Arabs that we don't have the capabilities and experience."
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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30. Sunday, July 16, 2006 12:00 PM |
Raymond |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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What is the location of the Al Manir T V station ? Would that not be a reasonable target ?
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31. Sunday, July 16, 2006 12:36 PM |
nuart |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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QUOTE:What is the location of the Al Manir T V station ? Would that not be a reasonable target ? |
Not sure of its physical location but I just found their English website for anyone who wants the official Hezbollah views. The English is likely to differ from the Arabic but at least it's something. Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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32. Sunday, July 16, 2006 2:04 PM |
Raymond |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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Hmmm, i guess it is a general Lebanese station, at least officially--not solely a Hezbullah outlet ? Wait, I just heard the T V refer to the station as a Hezbullah station. Therefor....
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33. Sunday, July 16, 2006 2:54 PM |
danwhy |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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And the rockets hit home, not that I would vacation in Lebanon right now... Sunday, Jul 16, 2006 8 Canadians killed, 6 badly injured in Israeli air strike in south Lebanon (CP) - Eight Canadians, including several members of the same family, were killed in an Israeli air strike in Lebanon on Sunday as the Canadian government stepped up plans for an evacuation of the war-torn region. Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay confirmed the eight deaths and said six other Canadians were critically injured in the attack. He said the names and hometowns of the victims were not immediately known. So because this was a civilian strike would it be considered terrorism? Now, I know it's not of course, but the issue does allow me to see how reactions and feelings can get very muddled. Back to your regularly scheduled programming, I certainly have no answers here.
"We cannot allow a mine shaft gap"
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34. Sunday, July 16, 2006 3:18 PM |
nuart |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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Not that it matters, but I understood they were Lebanese-born dual citizenship Canadians, Danwhy. They were killed in that southern Lebanon Hezbollah infested area just north of the Israeli border. War kills unfortunately. And not always the intended target as evidenced by the mouthing off on Hezbollah TV this morning by Supreme Leader Nasrallah.
Last night I was watching Syriana (have not finished it yet) and even though I know it was not actually filmed in Beirut, the scenes that purported to be Hezbollah controlled Beirut were frightening. Every rooftop had an armed Hezbollah "militant" patrolling the neighborhood. The population is held hostage. It will be all but impossible to completely forego innocent casualties of war particularly when the full intention of Hezbollah-ists is to keep civilian children and women close at hand. One thing I am certain of without even checking in advance is that the Israelis are not dispersing any sweets to their population in joyous celebration over any of these unintentional civilian deaths. Just found this live dialogue with a Hezbollah spokesperson on Islam Online. Once again, the "H" word figures strongly into the formula.
Guest Name Rima Fakhry , Member of Hizbullah's Political Council Subject Talk to a Senior Hizbullah Member Date Sunday,Jul 16 ,2006
Name Mohammad - Egypt Question Israeli reaction appears to be out of proportion to the kidnappings. Do you think that this assault has been pre-planned?
Answer: Of course. Every one knows that we have been planning to kidnap Israeli soldiers and the Israelis have been training their soldiers to face such kidnappings.
The whole thing is preplanned. The natural reaction would have been kidnapping Hizuballah members. What is happening is preplanned.
They are over-reacting because of the situation in Gaza. They feel that they have been insulted. The "undefeatable army" is facing a scandal. They are trying to save their face and to find a solution for their internal problems. They are using the kidnapping of the soldiers as a pretext for destroying Lebanon. They want to neutralize Hizbullah's power. Our rockets reached Haifa and we are able to reach Tel Aviv. The Israelis are aware of what capabilities we have.
We ask Allah to help us because we are fighting for His sake.
Name Abd Allah - Saudi Arabia Question Assalamo alaykum,
Our hearts are with you.
I have only one question in mind: How can we possibly help? Answer Alhamdulillah, we do not need money or resources.
What we need is the mobilization of Arab people. They should prove to the world that they are unwilling to accept humiliation.
Name Abdul Hamid - Profession Student Question Assalamo alaykum,
How do you justify your action which caused more death and destruction to your civilians than to Jews?
Answer The Israelis have been waiting for a pretext. Even without kidnapping Israeli soldiers, they would have attacked.
Kidnapping the Israeli soldiers is justified and it was accepted by all the Lebanese forces who agreed on freeing the Lebanese prisoners and liberating Sheba'a farms.
What we did is justified; we have never declared that we will stop our operations. What we did is part of our normal resistance activities. We should not give the Israelis the chance to use the kidnapping as pretext for attacking Lebanon.
With regard to destruction, it is normal. This a war.
"Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. If ye are suffering, lo! they suffer even as ye suffer and ye hope from Allah that for which they cannot hope. Allah is ever Knower, Wise." (Qur'an, An-nisaa': 104)
We have seen the statement made by Arab ministers yesterday. If we unite, I am sure that such "an entity" will be destoryed. Read Isreali newspapers and you will be proud.
We need the Arab people to act in order for us to feel that we are not all alone. They should urge their governments to act against our enemy. We need more demonstrations. We need to feel that Arab people are angry and they should express their anger.
Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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35. Sunday, July 16, 2006 4:20 PM |
LetsRoque |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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Once again advocacy of violence from the comfort of our computer rooms. I expected this, but one question? Has anybody advocating such action ever seen the effects of a bombing first hand? I reckon you might think twice if you had. What Israel is doing is a form of terrorism. They are no better than hizbollah. You can say 'yeah well they started it' but that kinda response belongs in the playground. There is a question of proportionality here also. Does the kidnap of two soldiers warrant the firing of rockets into lebanon without any regard for innocent human life ? Does Lebanon deserve its infrastructure put back twenty years over the actions of a terrorist group operating out of its country? Many people in the UK sympathise with al-qaeda, will it ever be bombed indiscriminately because its citizens commit heinous acts? The real answer is that the kidnappings play right into the hands of Israel's backers-in-chief, and their extremely misguided plans for the region. As if islamic terrorists and governments with antipathy towards the west needed any more reason to galvanise!
'I look for an opening, do you understand?'
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36. Monday, July 17, 2006 6:36 PM |
Raymond |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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I saw and smelled first hand the Twin Towers attack. Does that count ? I don't have your empathy for Islamic terrorists, sorry. Although I expressed concern for non Hizbollah Lebanon and its weak government above.
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37. Sunday, July 16, 2006 5:09 PM |
nuart |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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Yes, from the comfort of our computer rooms. Not from a tiny state smaller than New Jersey with 5 million + citizens who have had to survive in a sea of hatred and attacks since the day of their inception some fifty years ago. As a result the war that began the day israel was born, when five neighboring Arab countries attacked, the country suffered the loss of 10% of its population. Yes, we can make our judgments from our safe perches and not from the state that has been attacked by enemies who openly state their desire to annihilate Israel whether they are Israelis eating in a pizzaria or Olympic athletes in Munich. Yes, it's easy to say the Israelis should not "overreact" and attempt to wipe out the terrorists on their borders who have never stopped sending rockets into israeli terroritories even after ever last Jew left Lebanon 6 years ago or Gaza 1 year ago. Yes, it's all too easy to play the moral equivalency game. I won't even address the full extent of your statements, James, because it is all too easy to do a bit of research to disprove them yourself if you wanted to truly objectively seek out the fully story. If indeed you are unable to draw any distinctions between the actions of Hezbollah and the Israelis, I say, as I often say to those who carelessly make such claims, may you be so fortunate as to not have a Hezbollah type leadership one day hoisted upon you in order to actually discover the finer points of living in a Islamist paradise. Anyway, this was frustrating (in a way) to read from you. I really wish you would look a little closer and that I could recommend some reading material to help that along.
But yes, I advocate violence against terrorism that affects the small state of Israel and ultimately the terrorism that threatens us all. Sigh. I've said it all so many times that I'm not going to rehash the history of the birth of Israel. Israel's not perfect. But it is a far cry above Hezbollah and I would think that is quite obvious to all objective observers. If that much is not clear, I'm spitting in the wind. Now, I'm going to the safety of my market to buy some fresh food for tonight's dinner which I'll enjoy in the safety of my home. Later when I'm walking my dog, I intend to stop and chat with my Israeli next door neighbor and to ask him, "Efie, what do you do when you hear things like 'there's no difference between Hezbollah and the Israelis?' How do you handle comments like that?" It's especially disappointing when you have formerly respected the intellectual integrity of one who utters such ______.
Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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38. Sunday, July 16, 2006 5:20 PM |
LetsRoque |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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I don't wish to be respected or win popularity contests with my opinions Susan. You obviously disagree but I just want to say that I cannot come down on the side of a state that just recklessly fires rockets at its neighbours like that. The lebanese people done nothing wrong. Hizbollah did. You may say that I need to read more but my gut tells me that what I am seeing on the news is morally wrong. I trust my gut.
'I look for an opening, do you understand?'
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39. Sunday, July 16, 2006 5:23 PM |
LetsRoque |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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Please raymond point out where I sympathaised with Islamic terrorists? Just because I oppose cracking a nut with a sledgehammer?
'I look for an opening, do you understand?'
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40. Sunday, July 16, 2006 7:11 PM |
nuart |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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QUOTE: I don't wish to be respected or win popularity contests with my opinions Susan. You obviously disagree but I just want to say that I cannot come down on the side of a state that just recklessly fires rockets at its neighbours like that. The lebanese people done nothing wrong. Hizbollah did. You may say that I need to read more but my gut tells me that what I am seeing on the news is morally wrong. I trust my gut. |
Fine, James. Fine and dandy if that's the way you feel. I think you will change your mind at least in some ways at least about using "gut instinct" to judge international geopolitical actions.
It's possible to employ the reductive schoolyard analogy, I suppose. It leaves a lot to desire, but still, even with that example I imagine your scenario with a small group of kids who would like nothing more than to enjoy the fruits of their long labor in greening the desert and to do so in peace on the small sliver of a playground, while a far larger group has as their stated goal the utter destruction of the smaller group. After all, this smaller group is not stupid. They recognize they are the smaller group. They have a recent history of having had their populations systematically eliminated in a playground where they thought they were accepted. More or less. They felt they had been a part of that playground in every known way even if privately they sensed not everyone was thrilled with these kids living among them. Anyway, back to the playground in the desert. Let's say a boy from larger group kicks boy from smaller group. The kicker feels the other boy does not belong there. Smaller group strikes back knowing if they don't, this could very quickly escalate into what happened in that other playground where the boys from the smaller group were taken in cattle cars to their deaths by the millions. The boys from the smaller group live with the knowledge that throughout the history of his group, countless attempts have been made to rid the world of their group. They are hypervigilant to any such threat. "Never again" is their motto. Many boys from larger group strike. Boys from smaller group figure out a strategy. Over time, the boys from smaller group grow stronger through their collective wits and from the strength that comes knowing they must count on one another. But they are optimistic on this new playground. Boys from smaller group include within their group 20% of boys from larger group. Boys from larger group stay with their stated goal. Destroy smaller group. Over years boys from smaller group try every means possible from diplomacy to shared control to giving parts of the playground to the boys from the larger group. Nothing works. Nothing changes. But now the boys from the smaller group have figured out many many ways to defend themselves. This humiliates the boys from the larger group who still gather on that playground and try to push the boys from the smaller group out. Boys from the larger group appeal to a still larger group from the shall we say "larger playground." Do those boys offer them some of their larger playground? Nah. But those boys have claim to 10% of every playground on earth and some of them are wealthy beyond measure. Nah, sharing their playground would take away their scapegoat and the reason for the lack of success in that great big playground. It's a firmly established pattern by now. The wee little ones from the larger group are inculcated from birth to hate the boys from the smaller group. They learn to hate them more than they love their own group. In fact, if they must die to kill one or two of the smaller group, they consider that as great an achievement as the the boys of the smaller group feel when achieving career success, for example. Hating the smaller group serves a unifying function on the greater playground in the region, but as sure as Democrats will always want to bitch and moan about gun control and as sure as Republicans will want to bitch and moan about abortion; the kids on the playground from the larger group will want to bitch and moan and blame the now far more successful though smaller group. With any luck, they'll be able to rally kids from totally unrelated playgrounds from the wealthy comfortable playgrounds to feel great empathy for the humiliation those kids suffer. They'll show out of context bloody images that melt the hearts of the kids from the comfie playgrounds making their hearts ache for the suffering they are told is the result of the mean smaller group. Well, I don't think that worked too well in explaining the situation but I made an effort within the confines of your analogy. Yes, I know it doesn't tell the complete story because it's a long one that covers many centuries. You say reckless. You say "neighbors" as if these neighbors didn't have a rocket launcher in every Hezbollah house just past the Israeli border. Where do you think those rockets are being launched from? A Hezbollah military base??? No. They are within the civilian HOMES. Isn't that convenient? No it's not. But it is not an Israeli strategic goal to recklessly aim for civilians and never ever has been. And I think you know that in your same gut if you thought it through. It doesn't even make sense. ISRAEL WANTS TO SURVIVE AND FLOURISH WITHIN ITS BORDERS AND WITH ITS NEIGHBORS. Unfortunately the larger percentage of those neighbors feel its a waiting game until the Israelis give it up or are decimated by numbers of enemies or superior weapons. Uh, like nukes from Ahmadinejad's Iran, ie. I won't belabor my points any further because I don't mean to attack you. It is not an easy subject to grasp from all sides. But, like our imaginary Israeli Secretary of Defense, Schlomo Herofix, I sense you too would be at a loss to propose a wiser, more mature, more "proportional" plan of action for the Israelis if you were aware of all that has been tried over the past half century. And all that has been less than heartening. Finally I leave you with a question. If Israel ends up making a serious dent in the Hezbollah forces within southern Lebanon and Lebanon has a chance to live as an unoccupied sovereign nation for the first time in what-is-it? -- 35 years? -- will you give any credit to the Israelis for having taken action when no one else would? Not the Arab nations. Not the Lebanese people. Certainly not the United Nations. Because the way I understand it, this is the Israeli goal to once and for all destroy the bulk of Hezbollah terrorism lurking within striking distance from their positions. If nothing else, you surely must give some credit to the Israelis for having a modicum of smarts. Maybe, just maybe, they know something we don't know and maybe their strategy will (gasp) work.
Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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41. Sunday, July 16, 2006 8:42 PM |
Raymond |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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"As if islamic terrorists and governments with antipathy towards the west needed any more reason to galvanise! " The statement shows sympathy for Islamic terrorists.
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42. Monday, July 17, 2006 7:16 AM |
herofix |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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No it doesn't.
An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
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43. Monday, July 17, 2006 7:37 AM |
nuart |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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Then there's Tibet.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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44. Monday, July 17, 2006 8:00 AM |
jordan |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
Admin
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Saw this on a blog today: "In the old days, the idea of fear of a nasty response from a well-armed power often acted as a deterrent (remember that word?) to attacking that country. In fact, that was one of the reasons countries had armies and weapons--not necessarily to use them, but to keep from having to use them very often; to keep themselves from being overrun and attacked, to defend its citizens. And the best way to defend them would be to not even have to defend them, but to just use the threat of a response in defense. And to be threatening, it helped if that threat was somewhat unpredictable in its force and scope. In the olden days (which weren't so very long ago) responses were seldom (if ever?) discussed in terms of proportionality. ...Each nation would do what it determined necessary to end the threat--no more and no less. Sometimes it would miscalculate, of course. But the idea was that a sovereign nation had a right to defend itself to the best of its ability and its own judgment, and everyone knew that. And that knowledge probably served to prevent many asymmetrical attacks. "The Mouse That Roared" notwithstanding, weak countries didn't tend to attack the strong; it would be suicidal. But asymmetrical warfare is now not only chic, but it's actively encouraged by this idea of "proportionality," which ties the gigantic Gullivers of the world (such as that mean old, bad old US and its vile mini-me, Israel) down with many tiny ropes. It's in the interests of those with less power, and fewer arms, to advance the doctrine of "proportionality." This evens the playing field, something like a handicap in golf, and makes the game better sport for those with fewer skills....But war is not a game of golf. And leveling the playing field doesn't make for more fun. It makes for the emboldenment of tyrants in the third world. It makes for lengthy, drawn-out conflicts that never seem to end or be resolved. It buys time for countries such as Iran to gain power and become contenders by acquiring the most disproportionate weaponry of all, the nuclear variety." Obviously , I know some will disagree wholeheartedly. Okay, over 500 missles have been fired into Israel by Hazbellauh (or however you spell it so I'll jsut call it H) from, as Susan said, from HOMES. So using the same technology the US uses (because the US gave Israel this technology), ISrael is able to directly hit said targets - which are sometimes (often times) homes. The reason why H folks are sitting in homes is to try and get the kind of reaction some are feeling - this whole concept of proportionaltiy, and this thought of "what about the innocent?" Guys, I hate to break it to you, but H terrorists are standing on top of innocent people so that when they are killed, innocent people also die. It's a big game, adn everyone who uses their feelings to figure this out, is falling right into that trap so it "feels" like it's immoral. Israel has so many more powerful weapons than someone else, we often hear, and that as a result is disportionate. Since when in warfare was the notion of proportionality important? Oh, well, I guess since Army A has 500 soldiers, and Army B has 25,000 soldiers, we'll take 24,500 soldiers away from B to play fair? Seriously!!! No boy group on a playground would be that stupid, and in reality, no one in the world would do that, and yet here we are talking about proportionality in something that is basically a war. Oh, they only took a handful of soldiers from Israel, and you shouldn't be attacking them, or if you do, only shoot a couple of missles over. Of course knowing that they will only receive a slap, H and all the other groups know they can continue to peck away in an effort to disturb the sleeping bear so that he takes a swipe, and everyone else in the forest says "Shame on you Mr Bear!" but hardly say a word to the annoying person who has been poking the bear with a stick for over an hour.
This morning on the radio I heard someone compare this basically to some group of people in the US attacking Canada, and the US not doing anything about it (which is basically what Lebanon and all the other countries have been doing for years). But if that was to happen in the US, the US would actually do something about it and assist Canada to get these people. If Lebanon was truly willing to do that, then maybe none of this would be going on. But the fact of the matter is that all of these ME countries who hate Israel have been using and supporting terrorists groups to slowly peck away at Israel, and then acting like they had nothing to do with it.
Jordan .
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45. Monday, July 17, 2006 10:02 AM |
nuart |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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This article is from today -- JULY 17 (I'm just realizing it's my anniversary) 2006! See what's on the mind of Syria's Foreign Minister. He has a dream. Not quite like Martin Luther King's dream, but a dream all the same. I may say he's a dreamer. I know he's not the only one. But whadda dream! Dream on... This from Asharq Alawsat newspaper. At the end is a short bio of the author of this piece. Someone to watch. Is the worm turning in some small way? Susan
He Has a Dream! Monday 17 July 2006
Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al Muallem said that, on a flight from Damascus to Cairo, he dreamt of “a united Arab stand in support of Hezbollah and Hamas as a legitimate resistance”. The minister also dreamt that he saw the Secretary-General of the Arab League visiting the houses of victims in Gaza. He concluded that even dreams are no longer a legitimate right.
As long as we are in the fantasy realm, we had a dream of own that went like this; The Syrian embassy in Beirut, which doesn’t exist, send a representative to Hezbollah to inform them that they should not act in a manner that pushes Lebanon into war and total destruction. That is unless they coordinate with the Lebanese government to make sure shelters and safe houses are available for the weak and elderly.
The representative would then inform Hezbollah that they need to take into consideration Lebanon’s greater interests, in the same way that Syria is concerned for its citizens and wisely conducts its enmity with Israel. In this regard, the best example is the presence of Syrian prisoners in Israel and the continued occupation of the Golan Heights. All this has not lead Syria to burn its own country and subject its citizens to death and destruction, as is currently taking place in Lebanon.
We also dreamt of an Arab League meeting being held in the Golan Heights!
We dreamt that the statement from the Syrian parliament and the Baath party included Syrian territory and prisoners to the heroic communiqué which said, “The Syrian people is standing with all its strength by the brotherly Lebanese people and the national Lebanese resistance, which is defending its legitimate right to liberate its occupied land.” What is the meaning of this solidarity if all of Lebanon is being hit and burned, and we haven’t heard a single shot or seen a single missile launched from Syria , in support of Lebanon , on which missiles are pouring from land, sea and air!
Dreams…? What dreams! Reality tells us, Your Excellency, that Sayyid Hassan Nasrallah has morphed into a tape recording, since everyone who declares war in the name of the Arab and Muslim worlds eventually becomes one.
Reality, your Excellency, tells us that we are the sons of a conflict that will bring about one conflict after another, because we are the heroes of slogans and fight our battles through intermediaries. Those currently lamenting, from all sections, claim they are ready to be steadfast, sacrifice and fight Israel, until the last drop of Lebanese blood. Yes, Lebanese, as no one wants to bear responsibility.
The proprietors of slogans, from government and Arab ministers go to Arab meetings to give virtuous speeches, instead of discussing what can be done to protect the lives of Arab citizens.
I asked a senior Arab official about the minister’s dreams. “They are like the halo of light that Ahmadinejad saw in the United Nations,” he replied.
Your Excellency, we are the victims of reality and you want to make us the victims of your dreams? All our dreams, even if we are accused of treason, are for Hezbollah to be as wise as you are in dealing with the occupation of the Golan Heights and the issue of Syrian prisoners in Israel, until the time comes for an Arab summit in the Syrian Golan Heights.
Tariq Alhomayed is the Editor-in-Chief of Asharq Al-Awsat, the youngest person to be appointed that position. Mr. Alhomayed has an acclaimed and distinguished career as a Journalist and has held many key positions in the field including; Assistant Editor-in-Chief of Asharq Al-Awsat, Managing Editor of Asharq Al-Awsat in Saudi Arabia, Head of Asharq Al-Awsat Newspaper's Bureau-Jeddah, Correspondent for Al - Madina Newspaper in Washington D.C. from 1998 to Aug 2000. Mr. Alhomyed has been a guest analyst and commentator on numerous news and current affair programs including: the BBC, German TV, Al Arabiya, Al- Hurra, LBC and the acclaimed Imad Live’s four-part series on terrorism and reformation in Saudi Arabia. He is also the first Journalist to conduct an interview with Osama Bin Ladin's Mother. Mr. Alhomayed holds a BA degree in Media studies from King Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah, and has also completed his Introductory courses towards a Master’s degree from George Washington University in Washington D.C. He is based in London.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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46. Monday, July 17, 2006 10:18 AM |
x-ray |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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I'll leave the proportionality discussion to you guys, but from my point of view, surely the most effective method of dealing with the Hezbollah kidnappings would be have a total news blackout and carry out negotiations through an intermediatory? Then if that process irrevocably failed Israel could mount a covert operstion of retaliation to hit back at Hezbollah or indeed rescuse their kidnapped troops? Is this absurdly simple? Or am I just two steps behind everyone else? (*cough* as usual)
x-ray if your back's against the wall, turn around and write on it...
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47. Monday, July 17, 2006 10:35 AM |
jordan |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
Admin
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The problem as I see it is that the terrorists announce the kidnappings as soon as it happens and there goes the blackout. News blackouts in today's world of the Internet is almost next to impossible. Plus, running to negotiation tables only makes the problem worse - there's a reason why country's usual policy is that they/we don't pay ransoms as an example because once you start paying out ransoms everyone starts doing it - the same can be similarily said often about negotiations. There's a time and place for negotations, and they work initially, but when you find yourself in the same problem time and time again (like Israel), there comes to a point where we have to realize that talking is useless (something many the world have yet to figure out). Plus when you go in covert into a sovereign nation, well, then that has the potential to start a war anyway so we're still stuck at square one in many ways.
Jordan .
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48. Monday, July 17, 2006 11:32 AM |
nuart |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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Psst. If you're looking for Nasrallah, rumor has it he's holed up near the Syrian border. Puppet. Susan DEBKAfile Exclusive reveals: Hizballah leader Hassan Nassrallah and top command are holed up in Hermel, the northern Lebanese panhandle bordering Syria July 17, 2006, 11:02 AM (GMT+02:00) Among them, according to DEBKAfile’s military and Iranian sources, are Hizballah’s “chief of staff” Ibrahim Akil, its head of intelligence and terror Imad Mughniyeh and commander of special operations Halil Harab. The group fled their Beirut HQ Saturday night, July 15, and went to ground in the emergency staff bunkers prepared in advance of their July 12 attack on Israel. After failing to prevent the top Hizballah leaders’ escape from Beirut, the Israeli air force headed north Monday morning, July 17, and is clobbering the Hermel region. DEBKAfile adds: The Hermel drug-farming pocket bordered north and east by Syria is the haunt of smugglers who use the remote, strategically placed region to move fighters, weapons, cash and drugs across Syria into Iraq and as a staging post to other parts of the Middle East. The smuggling gangs’ overlord is Mughniyeh, a triple Hizballah-Iran-al Qaeda agent and terrorist executive, who has figured high on the US wanted terrorist list for more than two decades. On his orders, the smugglers recently relocated their main operation from the Syrian-Iraqi border to the Syrian-Lebanese border in preparation for the new warfront against Israel. In the last 48 hours, Iran has used this illicit route to beat the Israeli air, sea and land blockade and pump quantities of rockets, anti-air and anti-tank missiles and other advanced weapons systems to Hizballah for a fresh escalation. Syria's role in this smuggling operation is critical. DEBKAfile’s Iranian sources add that the holds of all the Iranian passenger flights landing in Damascus from Thursday, July 13, have been crammed with weapons for Hizballah. Friday and Saturday, 25 Iranian Revolutionary Guards officers, anti-tank and anti-air missile experts, arrived in mufti in the Syrian capital. They were led by the smugglers across mountain routes into Lebanon. Mughniye, a confidant of Iran's Ali Khamenei and Osama bin Laden, is constantly at Nasrallah’s side. He is believed by Israeli intelligence to have engineered the kidnap of the two Israeli soldiers on which sparked the hostilities July 12.
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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49. Monday, July 17, 2006 11:47 AM |
LetsRoque |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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quote - "Okay, over 500 missles have been fired into Israel by Hazbellauh (or however you spell it so I'll jsut call it H) from, as Susan said, from HOMES. So using the same technology the US uses (because the US gave Israel this technology), ISrael is able to directly hit said targets - which are sometimes (often times) homes. The reason why H folks are sitting in homes is to try and get the kind of reaction some are feeling - this whole concept of proportionaltiy, and this thought of "what about the innocent?" Guys, I hate to break it to you, but H terrorists are standing on top of innocent people so that when they are killed, innocent people also die. It's a big game, adn everyone who uses their feelings to figure this out, is falling right into that trap so it "feels" like it's immoral. " Excuse me but this kind of rationale disturbs me greatly. You just explained away the murder of innocent men, women and children too easily for my palette. I can't swallow the term 'collateral damage' as easily you. So the rockets come from homes so that makes it ok to vapourise everything around them? Susan asked me earlier to try and think more objectively and from my point of view that kind of rationalisation for killing innocents comes close to the bullsh*t rhetoric that bin laden comes off with. I'm sorry. All killing of innocents is wrong, I can't be more objective than that. Susan also asked me what I would do, I would call a ceasefire. Doing nothing to stop this cirlce of violence will have far greater implications for the region as a whole. We heard today Mr Bush accusing Syria of not doing enough to stop hizbollah. Syria looks like it is next in the firing line, and that would be messy. Raymond - you mistakenly claim that I sympathise with terrorists. I condemn violence from whatever quarter it comes from.
'I look for an opening, do you understand?'
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50. Monday, July 17, 2006 11:58 AM |
nuart |
RE: And now, Lebanon |
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Okay, then, James, for my next question -- and just for clarity -- I'd ask what war you last approved of? That's all. And while you consider that question, I'd like you to think about the folks with whom you'd declare a ceasefire. Okay, these are the string pullers and Hezbollah is the puppet but still. WHY IN ALLAH'S NAME DO YOU THINK A CEASEFIRE WITH THOSE WHO ESPOUSE THESE VIEWS WOULD HAVE ANY VALIDITY? Kayhan Editor: The Annihilation of the Zionist Regime is Not Only a Religious and National Duty, but a Universal Human Duty; The Whole World Must Be Made Unsafe for the Zionists, [Including] Their Political and Commercial Centers. This Does Not Require the Governments' Approval
Hossein Shariatmadari, editor of the conservative Iranian daily Kayhan, affiliated with Iran's Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, called today (July 17, 2006) in his editorial to "wipe Israel off the map." He said: "There are many signs and portents indicating that 'the fateful day' is coming near. It is possible that this day... has already begun... "The Muslim peoples and many other peoples think that, in global geopolitics, there is no such thing as the state of Israel, and that the [entity] which presently bears this name is a usurping and rootless state that has imposed its parasitic presence over the region and over Palestine with the support of the arrogant powers. [This entity] invents a new crime every day. It causes men, women, and innocent children to bleed to death, or else deports them from their homeland and turns them into refugees. In light of this 'problem,' which is perfectly obvious, the annihilation of the Zionist regime is not only a religious and national duty, but also a universal human duty, from which no Muslim or free human being can be exempt. "Comprehensive support for Hamas and Hizbullah, political, logistically, militarily, and through sending combatant forces to this front are the minimal price that the Islamic countries must pay in order to maintain their own security and independence... "The city of Haifa lies 35 kilometers [sic] from the Lebanese border, and the distance [from the Lebanese border] to Nazareth is about 50 kilometers. Tomorrow will come the turn of Herzliya, Natanya, and Tel Aviv... The Muslim peoples must not allow this conflict to remain within the boundaries of the region. The Zionists are dispersed in many places around the world, and it is not so difficult to locate and get [our] hands on them. The entire world can and must be made unsafe for the Zionists, [including] their political and commercial centers. This does not require the governments' approval... The fateful day may have begun, and fierce revenge on the barbaric Zionists is underway, Allah willing."(2)
Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
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