Home | Register | Login | Members  

Politics > And now, Lebanon
New Topic | Post Reply
<< | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | >>  
1. Wednesday, July 12, 2006 9:04 AM
nuart And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

Hezbollah striking Israeli soldiers on the northern border of Israel. Kill 7. Kidnap 2. Israel calls it an "act of war."

Kofi Annan condemns Israel's actions in Gaza as "terrorism, plain and simple." The 1 kidnapped soldier remains in the hands of Hamas. One supposes.

All hell is breaking out. Who is orchestrating the attacks from the north and the south? Iran. Syria. With minions all about.

It's always difficult to figure out the source of emotional outlet when observing a Palestinian street dance with AK 47s firing up into the air. This morning's glee was not for the funeral of a martyr but for the joy of learning what Hezbollah, no friend to Hamas, has done by following their lead and kidnapping two more soldiers. Could it be as simple as imitation being the most sincere form of flattery?

I fear not.

This is going to get serious fast, kids. And I don't like it one little bit. 1948. 1967. 1973. 2006?

Susan

PM Olmert declares Hizbullah attack 'act of war' by Lebanon
yaakov katz, herb keinon and jpost staff, THE JERUSALEM POST
Jul. 12, 2006

Seven IDF soldiers were killed Wednesday in a Hizbullah attack on IDF forces patrolling the Lebanese border, the army has confirmed.

Three of the soldiers who were killed were riding in a Hummer jeep when it was attacked, while two other soldiers in the same jeep were kidnapped.

IDF ground troops were sent into Lebanon to search for the abducted men.

The other four soldiers died when the tank in which they were riding drove over an explosive device. The force of the blast ripped the tank apart, and IDF forces were searching for the remains. All of the soldiers' families have been notified.

Wednesday morning's attacks, which occurred 17 days after IDF soldier Gilad Shalit was abducted in Gaza, opened a second front on Israel's northern border, including barrages of Katyusha rockets and mortar shells.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert declared the attack as an "act of war" and not terror. During a press conference with Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi Wednesday afternoon, he called it an unprovoked assault by a sovereign nation and held Lebanon, where Hizbullah has a minister in the government, fully responsible.

"Israel's response will be restrained but very, very, very painful," Olmert added.

The ground troops that were sent into Lebanon to search for the two were aided by IAF jets, helicopters and UAVs, which were also flying above Lebanon searching for the soldiers. Several jets were flying patterns above Beirut, Channel 10 reported. Simultaneously, Navy gunboats and artillery along the border were shelling Hizbullah targets in Lebanon.

The army has destroyed 30 targets and Hizbullah outposts in Lebanon, as well as three bridges, since the beginning of the operation.

While Hizbullah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah announced at Wednesday afternoon press conference that the two kidnapped soldiers were "in a safe and very distant place," a senior Hizbullah official claimed that at least one of the two was still alive.

The army announced that there were blood stains on the ground near where the soldiers were kidnapped, but they were not big. There is no way to know what condition the soldiers are currently in, but the army is operating under the assumption that the two are still alive, said OC Northern Command Maj.-Gen. Udi Adam at a Wednesday afternoon press conference.

A senior IDF officer landed in the northern Druse village of Kfar Yanuh on Wednesday afternoon, apparently to inform a family there that their son had been kidnapped.

The morning attack began around 9:15 a.m., when Hizbullah launched a heavy barrage of Katyusha rockets and mortar shells at IDF positions and communities along the northern frontier. One rocket scored a direct hit on a house in Shtula. Magen David Adom said they had treated six people. Both soldiers and civilians were wounded; they were evacuated to Nahariya hospital.

As the Katyushas rained providing cover for the operatives, an explosive charge detonated under an IDF tank, killing the four soldiers onboard. A Hummer was attacked as well - three soldiers were killed and two abducted.

IDF Northern Command officers were in touch with UN and Red Cross officials in Lebanon to try and conduct negotiations through those organizations with the Lebanese government in an effort to retrieve the captured soldiers diplomatically.

According to IDF estimations, military campaigns in Lebanon had little chance of retrieving the soldiers.

Adam said that Israel does not plan to negotiate with the Hizbullah, a terrorist organization by UN definitions.

Meanwhile, police all over the country were on high alert to prevent terror attacks.

Hizbullah has offered to exchange the two soldiers and Cpl. Gilad Shalit for thousands of security prisoners.

IDF sources estimated that the attack was a Hizbullah response to Israel's early Wednesday attempted strike on top Hamas terrorist Mohammad Deif in Gaza.

Residents of the Western Galilee entered their shelters, and in the community of Shlomi, residents were asked to enter fortified rooms.

Adam stated that northern residents would have to go into a new mode of operation in the next few days, entering and exiting their shelters.

The northern border has been on high alert since Operation Summer Rains began.


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
2. Wednesday, July 12, 2006 10:13 AM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

I'm back, Susan.

Good to hear from you, Nuart. What's up?

Well, I just found this article where an Israeli member of the Knesset advised that the Palestinians abduct Israeli soldiers!

You're kidding!

No. Seriously. Read below:

Arab MK: 'I Advised PA to Kidnap Soldier'
Sunday, July 9, 2006 / 13 Tammuz 5766

Knesset Member Wasal Taha, corresponding publicly with internet surfers on the Arabic-language IslamOnline site, said he repeatedly advised PA terrorists to battle and kidnap Israeli soldiers.

MK Zevulun Orlev (National Religious Party), who last week submitted a bill to negate Knesset membership to MKs who support terrorists, said that Taha's "traitorous" remarks are further proof that Israeli democracy must protect itself.

According to a report in Maariv newspaper on Sunday, Taha told surfers on Thursday that he repeatedly advised the PA Arabs to stop shooting and targeting civilians, and to concentrate on IDF targets. An English translation of Maariv's Hebrew translation of Taha's Arabic words:

"We told them more than once that the Palestinians, who are subjected to murder and ongoing crimes on the part of the Israeli army, have two options: One is to explode and kill civilians - and these are much easier operations. The second option is the military option, in the framework of which a military unit from the resistance [i.e., terrorist infrastructures - ed.] is established in order to break into a military camp, clash with the soldiers and battle them and take them and the conquest into captivity."

Taha also had words of advice for the PA on the publicity front, saying that the kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit should not be called "kidnapped" but rather "imprisoned" or "captive." Taha said, "Kidnapping is an act carried out by gangs, terrorists, and the like. But 'captive' means that [it is carried out by] an organized, legitimate group that makes decisions. Israel is trying to present our resistance as something less - as terrorism, murder, and kidnapping - in order that the diplomatic circle will be closed to it."

Asked by Arutz-7's Uzi Baruch if Taha condemns the abduction of Corp. Gilad Shalit, the MK's aide said, "We do not condemn actions against IDF soldiers, we condemn actions only against innocent civilians."

Taha himself later said that when he said that the PA had two options, he was speaking with the Israelis. However, this is not borne out by the Maariv report. In any event, he still insists that he does not object to warfare against the IDF: "What I meant was that the Palestinians... have two options: one is to fight the conquest via harming Israeli civilians, which is the easier way but not legitimate, and this we oppose; or fighting the Israeli conquest via an organized attack against the IDF, as occurred in the case of Gilad Shalit."

MKs Orlev and Effie Eitam said Attorney General Menachem Mazuz should indict Taha for treason. MK Gilad Erdan has called upon Mazuz to indict Taha for incitement to violence, and for Interior Minister Roni Bar-On to consider stripping Taha of his Israeli citizenship. Minister Yaakov Edri (Kadima) said that Taha's words "border on grave incitement."

MK Tzvi Hendel (National Union) said in response, "I suggest that we trade the Arab MKs for the kidnapped Israeli soldier."

MK Orlev said, "The traitorous words of MK Taha prove that Trojan horses have invaded the Knesset, and the democracy must protect itself from them. Taha brags about his collaboration with the enemy and shows that the instructions for the kidnapping did not emanate only from Khaled Meshaal in Syria."

Prominent attorney Yoram Sheftel said that Taha's statement "is one that no democratic country can tolerate from a parliament member when that country is at war with the enemy with whom he was talking... I believe he violated the law and aided the enemy."

Trojan horses indeed, Nuart! This from an ARAB member of the Knesset.

Right. And we think we've got problems here in the US.

I had noticed two days ago when Hamas PM Ismail Haniyeh was given an op-ed peach of a propaganda opportunity by the Washington Post, that he used the term "kidnapped" only in quotations in reference to Gilad Shalit.

Yep, they've settled on that talking point.

You know what else I always find of interest?

What's that?

When Palestinians "condemn all attacks on innocent civilians." There are no innocent civilians in Israel since every Israeli either will, or is, or has been a member of the Israeli military.

Pretty safe condemnation, huh? And since there is no official sovereign state of Palestine, perhaps all Palestinians are de facto civilians.

Wonder if they will trade the Arab MK for Gilad Shalit?

You're not serious, are you, Susan?

You can never tell when I'm being facetious, can you? All signs are grim today, Nuart.

I agree, Susan.


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
3. Wednesday, July 12, 2006 10:27 AM
herofix RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:2500

 View Profile
 Send PM

Why is this described as an act of war rather than terrorism?  I just also heard an Israeli government official on the radio saying that 'the government of Lebanon' would pay for this.

Not knowing the Lebanese Parliament like the back of my hand, I just Wikapedia'd to find that out of the 128 seats in the Lebanese Parliament, only 14 of them are Hezbollah.  So you can see why I ask my original question...

It seems reminiscent of when Israel would blow up Palestinian Authority government buildings when Fatah was in power over issues that were seemingly carried out by someone else.

It just doesn't make logical sense if you're asking me - but I'll be the first to admit that I am not an expert on these issues.


An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
 
4. Wednesday, July 12, 2006 7:28 PM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM
QUOTE:

Why is this described as an act of war rather than terrorism? I just also heard an Israeli government official on the radio saying that 'the government of Lebanon' would pay for this.

Not knowing the Lebanese Parliament like the back of my hand, I just Wikapedia'd to find that out of the 128 seats in the Lebanese Parliament, only 14 of them are Hezbollah. So you can see why I ask my original question...

 


It's an act of war because it's against a military, rather than a civlian target. 14 Hezbollah seats in the Lebanese Parliament are tolerated by the Lebanese. If they have no control over their terrorist operatives, they are (as was the case with Fatah) either A. Impotent and hence a useless partner, or B. culpable and deserving of counterattack.

I vote B.

Susan

 

PS. Addendum to the Gilad Shalit saga:

 

Egypt says mediation for soldier's release was sabotaged Wed Jul 12, 6:35 AM ET

 

Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has said that his mediation efforts for the release of an Israeli soldier captured by Gaza militants were sabotaged by an unnamed party.

"I had reached an honourable solution to the crisis of the captured soldier and had obtained from Israel that it free a large number of Palestinian detainees," Mubarak told the state-owned Al-Ahram daily.

He said he had reached the breakthrough in the negotiations following contacts with Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas and Hamas political supremo Khaled Meshaal.

Hamas' armed wing is one of three Palestinian militant groups that claimed the June 25 capture of the Israeli corporal following an attack on a southern Gaza border post.

"But Hamas was submitted to pressure and other parties, whom I will not identify, intervened in the contacts engaged by Egypt, raising new hurdles for an agreement which was imminent," Mubarak said.

Some Israeli newspapers have accused Meshaal's Syrian and Iranian backers of obstructing a deal.

The soldier's captors have demanded the release of 1,000 Arab prisoners from Israeli jails.

Since Gilad Shalit's capture, Israel has launched a massive offensive against the Gaza Strip, killing 60 Palestinians in the past week alone and striking the territory's infrastructure.

 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
5. Wednesday, July 12, 2006 11:35 AM
jordan RE: And now, Lebanon

 Admin
 Member Since
 12/17/2005
 Posts:2274

 View Profile
 Send PM

When someone(s) attacks military it is an act of war. Isn't that a rule in the Rules of War book?


Jordan .

 
6. Wednesday, July 12, 2006 5:46 PM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

And then there's this which would appear to lend credence to my Israeli neighbor's claim of Iranian puppet masters pulling Hezbollah and Hamas strings from Tehran.

Despicable.  How this is defused, beats me. 

I hope you all see the relevance to this in terms of the bigger picture.  This is not a regional conflict.   

Susan

DEBKAfile reports: Iran’s national security adviser Ali Larijani flies to Damascus aboad special military plane Wednesday night as war tension builds up around Hizballah kidnap of 2 Israeli soldiers

July 12, 2006, 10:14 PM (GMT+02:00)

Larijani is also Iran’s senior nuclear negotiator. He will remain in Damascus for the duration of the crisis in line with the recently Iranian-Syrian mutual defense pact. His presence affirms that an Israeli attack on Syria will be deemed an assault on Iran. It also links the Israeli hostage crisis to Iran’s nuclear standoff with the West.

The White House released a statement holding Syria and Iran responsible for Hizballah abduction and demanding their immediate and unconditional release.

The Syrian army has been put on a state of preparedness.

DEBKAfile’s military sources add that the Iranian air force, missile units and navy are also on high alert.

DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources report Hizballah acted on orders from Tehran to open a second front against Israel, partly to ease IDF military pressure on the Hamas in the Gaza Strip. This was in response to an appeal Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal made to the Iranian ambassador to Damascus Mohammad Hassan Akhtari Sunday, July 9.

DEBKAfile’s Iranian sources report Tehran’s rationale as composed of three parts:

1. Iran shows the flag as a champion and defender of its ally, Hamas.

2. Sending Hizballah to open a warfront against Israel is the logical tactical complement to its latest order to go into action against American and British forces in southern Iraq.

3. Tehran hopes to hijack the agenda before the G-8 summit opening in St. Petersberg, Russia on July 15. Instead of discussing Iran’s nuclear case and the situation in Iraq along the lines set by President George W. Bush, the leaders of the industrial nations will be forced to address the Middle East flare-up

Any Israeli decision taken at prime minister Ehud Olmert’s high level consultation in Jerusalem Wednesday night must take this turn of events into account before deciding on limited air strikes against Hizballah and Lebanese civil targets without delay.

Our sources also report that immediately after Nasrallah’s statement to the media, Hizballah’s leaders went into hiding, their bases were evacuated and their fighting strength transferred to pre-planned places of concealment. Ahead of the abduction, Hizballah ordnance and missile stocks were transferred to the Palestinian Ahmed Jibril’s tunnel system at Naama, 30 km south of Beirut, which was built in the 1980s by East German engineers.

The Israel navy has long tried to smash this coastal underground fortress from the sea without success.

Israel began calling up an armored division, air crews and technicians from the reserves Wednesday night. DEBKAfile’s military experts: If Israel’s leaders opt for an anti-Hizballah operation on the lines of Operation Summer Rain against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, the IDF can expect the same measure of success as it has had in recovering Gilead Shalit and ending the Qassam missiles barrage.

 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
7. Wednesday, July 12, 2006 6:31 PM
herofix RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:2500

 View Profile
 Send PM

 I suppose my question would have been better stated as 'Why is it an inferred act of war from Lebanon, per se'?  I am quite astonished actually at your either/or outline there Susan.  To say they are incapable of preventing bad things from happening now is not to say that the Palestinian Authority (ex) or the Lebanese government couldn't be bolstered in a hope to give them that strength.  So, to dismiss as unuseful these elected institutions, well, you can't do it so easily I don't think.  And then to say that the one other option is that they are culpable, and that is what you believe it is.....this is the kind of rhetoric one hears from Israeli officials constantly and constantly I've failed to understand it.  In their language their are choosing not to discriminate between Hezbollah and the Lebanese government as a whole (even though Robert Fisk says they are being supported by the recently ousted Syrians, and you hint to Iran, but maybe both), but in their actions surely they will be forced to.  I hardly foresee the Falangist party headquarters about to be bombed over these actions, do you?

From today's Independent:

Robert Fisk: Beirut waits as Syrian masters send Hezbollah allies into battle

Published: 13 July 2006

It's about Syria. That was the frightening message delivered by Damascus yesterday when it allowed its Hizbollah allies to cross the UN Blue Line in southern Lebanon, kill three Israeli soldiers, capture two others and demand the release of Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails.

Within hours, a country that had begun to believe in peace - without a single Syrian soldier left on its soil - found itself once more at war.

Israel held the powerless Lebanese government responsible - as if the sectarian and divided cabinet in Beirut can control Hizbollah. That is Syria's message. Fouad Siniora, Lebanon's affable Prime Minister, may have thought he was running the country but it is President Bashar Assad in Damascus who can still bring life or death to a land that lost 150,000 lives in 15 years of civil conflict.

And there is one certain bet that Syria will rely on; that despite all Israel's threats of inflicting "pain" on Lebanon, this war will run out of control until - as has so often happened in the past - Israel itself calls for a ceasefire and releases prisoners. Then the international big-hitters will arrive and make their way to the real Lebanese capital - Damascus, not Beirut - and appeal for help.

That is probably the plan. But will it work? Israel has threatened Lebanon's newly installed infrastructure and Hizbollah has threatened Israel with further conflict. And therein lies the problem; to get at Hizbollah, Israel must send its soldiers into Lebanon - and then it will lose more soldiers.

Indeed when a single Merkava tank crossed the border into Lebanon yesterday morning, it struck a Hizbollah mine, which killed three more Israelis.

Certainly Hizbollah's attack broke the United Nations rules in southern Lebanon - a "violent breach" of the Blue Line, it was called by Geir Pedersen, the senior UN official in the country - and was bound to unleash the air force, tanks and gunboats of Israel on to this frail, dangerous country. Many Lebanese in Beirut were outraged when gangs of Hizbollah supporters drove through the streets of the capital with party flags to "celebrate" the attack on the border.

Christian members of the Lebanese government were voicing increasing frustration at the Shia Muslim militia's actions - which only proved how powerless the Beirut administration is.

By nightfall, Israel's air raids had begun to spread across the country - the first civilians to die were killed when an aircraft bombed a small road bridge at Qasmiyeh - but would they go even further and include a target in Syria? This would be the gravest escalation so far and would have US as well as UN diplomats appealing for that familiar, tired quality - "restraint".

And prisoner swaps is probably all that will come of this. In January 2004, for example, Israel freed 436 Arab prisoners and released the bodies of 59 Lebanese for burial, in return for an Israeli spy and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers.

As long ago as 1985, three Israeli soldiers captured in 1982 were traded for 1,150 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners. So Hizbollah knows - and the Israelis know - how this cruel game is played. How many have to die before the swaps begin is a more important question.

What is also clear is that for the first time Israel is facing two Islamist enemies - in southern Lebanon and in Gaza - rather than nationalist guerrillas. The Palestinian Hamas movement's spokesmen in Lebanon yesterday denied that there was any co-ordination with Hizbollah. This may be literally true but Hizbollah timed its attack when Arab feelings are embittered by the international sanctions placed on the democratically elected Hamas government and then the war in Gaza. Hizbollah will ride the anger over Gaza in the hope of escaping condemnation for its capture and killing of Israelis yesterday.

And there is one more little, sinister question. In past violence of this kind, Syria's power was controlled by the Hafez Assad, one of the shrewdest Arabs in modern history. But there are those - including Lebanese politicians - who believe that Bashar, the son, lacks his late father's wisdom and understanding of power. This is a country, remember, whose own Minister of Interior allegedly committed suicide last year and whose soldiers had to leave Lebanon amid suspicion that Syria had set up the murder of Rafik Hariri, Lebanon's former prime minister, last year. All this may now seem academic. But Damascus remains, as always, the key.


An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
 
8. Thursday, July 13, 2006 8:51 AM
Raymond RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:1664

 View Profile
 Send PM

I know that the terrorists base out of southern Lebanon. But, i am sorry to see war with Lebanon. The Lebanese govt. is weak and coming off a route of Syrian forces in the country. It is a dilemma for sure. And this current chapter comes after a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza by the Isrealis. That should have been a good step to a relative peace, but for Hamas. Hamas seems unconcerned with governing and improving the economic plight of Palestine. Seems so reckless and wrong headed to me.

 

OT : Wow, are there really 80 people on line now???

 
9. Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:25 AM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM
Sorry to have astonished you, Andrew, but that was the short reductive answer to a complex situation, I'm afraid. After reading over what you wrote and what you included from Fisk, I wonder to myself how pundits would handle things if suddenly put in the position of actually doing rather than pontificating. What actions would they take if they could, for the moment, put themselves in the position of an Israeli decision-maker? And what would a Prime Minister or Defense Minister Herofix do if put in charge of dealing with the current situation from the Israeli perspective.

And I thought about the alternative histories of the past 50 years in the Middle East, specifically Israel. You see, if you are prone to accept the Arab view of that history exclusively -- or even primarily -- you may end up with the view of expansionist Israelis, johnny-come-latelys to the region, who persistently encroach on the territories of Arabs claiming property as their own, bombarding civilian populations in a never-ending land grab with the US sending billions of dollars each year. In which case, there is an underdog quality that is attractive to tacitly support and that would be the Arab side.

If you begin from that calculus, then each "humble" action by a suicide bomber, each rocket lobbed into Israel and each Hamas or Hezbollah "militant" seems rational. What can they do to "end the occupation?" They're so much weaker than the Israelis. They're so oppressed. They don't have American Apache helicopters. And so on.

I have a far differing view but from any perspective, you'd have to acknowledge that the Israelis have had, over the years of their existence, wildly varying governments from those of its founders which were socialistic and far left, to the Rabin, Peres and Barak Labour governments to the more right wing militaristic governments of Netanyahu and Sharon. The Israelis have tried a wide range of approaches from negotiating with the useless Arafat through several governments, to shunning Arafat, embracing Abbas with hope, targeted assassinations of terrorist leaders, bulldozing houses of the families of suicide bombers, door-to-door searches for terrorists with the objective of sparing civilian lives at the risk of their own -- I could go on and on.

I could not go on and on with examples of good will from the Palestinian side of the coin. I could not come up with that myriad of attempts made by the Arab side to accept a Jewish state. I could not come up with much in the way of differences in methodology unless it was to trace the development of airline hijacking to suicide bombing to kassam rockets. In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of anything substantive. If they had actually eliminated the "kill the Jew" portions of children's textbooks as was promised a few years back, I suppose that would have been one example of good will. But as current as today, the television programming for children is not Teletubbies or Barney but "Come Join Hands with Martyred Mohammed Dura" enticing the youngest viewers to enter the fields of paradise where all is beautiful.

That's a prevailing reality. But it does not address the Lebanon question.

Hezbollah is conveniently, as is Hamas, both a military and a political organization. This allows for the world to view each as separate groups -- one with integrity; the other as "well whaddaya gonna do... they're armed. We can't control those rapscallions." And I suggest to you that is a public relations calculation designed for plausible denial. It is useful for swaying gullible outsiders. The Arabs know otherwise and if you would regularly watch the programming from MEMRI with English translations from the Arabic, you'd see what is said among one another which is usually different from the Western press releases.

So what can the beleaguered state of Lebanon do? It is not unlike an urban American city in some ways. The cities where gang warfare dominates certain parts of town and the police have little desire to get in the middle of what is known in law enforcement as "NRV" crime -- No Real Victim. So the thugs control the streets. Give them enough arms and the thugs can control a portion of the state as in southern Lebanon. Or the state as in Taliban's Afghanistan or Islamist Somalia. They have two choices -- do nothing or do something. I wonder what has Lebanon done to date to control the so-called militant wing of Hezbollah? Anything? Or has it been a tacit agreement to tolerate the guerrillas in their midst. In that case, isn't tolerance another word for appeasement?

Israel's taking out of the runways of the Beirut Airport and the other military airport makes Lebanon suffer. But it is not the same as all out bombing of Beirut. Bombarding an apartment with lead terrorists in the Gaza Strip may also kill the terrorists' families but it is the terrorist tactic to keep women and children in their midst including close by their bomb-making facilities. It's purposeful.

It's been the Israeli's method to strike back with disproportionate force to actions taken against its population and I won't belabor the reasons for that. We are talking about a small population driven from many lands over many centuries and now largely concentrated in one region with a sea of billions of enemies and a greater sea of international attitudes ranging from animus to mild disdain with a far smaller proportion (mostly in the United States) who expressly support Israel.

Israel may not always take the actions that Robert Fisk or Noam Chomsky or Christopher Hitchens or Andrew-herofix deem the smartest, most sensitive, or wisest, but over their short history they've learned that loving approval is rarely forthcoming regardless of their actions. Which leaves them with answering to themselves. Fortunately for others, their standard is higher than that of most nations on earth at any given time.

So Lebanon again. This morning I watched an interview between the Israeli ambassador to the US and an advocate for the Lebanese government named "Taba." (I am not familiar with who Taba is beyond that description given by MSNBC) The interviewer asked the Israeli the kind of questions you pose. She kept driving it at him -- "Shouldn't you concern yourself with this fragile new government in Lebanon?" and "How do you expect them to control Hezbollah?" and "Is it fair to take vengeance on Hezbollah by attacking the Lebanese government?"

He answered that Lebanon was accountable to control the forces within their country and if they were unable to, the Israelis would do their job for them to protect Israel. But when the interviewer got to the Lebanese government advocate, she seemed shocked to hear him answer in almost the same way. He claimed, as did Fisk, that it was the Syrians' fault but he also admitted the failure of the Lebanese government to control the Hezbollah factions who are essentially street thugs running ram shod over the civilians. One step that he suggested was Lebanese forces into the southern border to fight Hezbollah and take control but he added that an "international" force should come in with the Lebanese. Since there are not gazquilliions of international forces who seem to volunteer for such gigs, we know who the usual suspects are and I do not expect to see many Blue Helmets in the South of Lebanon, do you?

I didn't disagree with much of what Fisk had to say, Andrew, except that I would say the ultimate control of Syrian forces (Assad included) is Iran. Fortunately for the world, Arabs aren't great lovers of the Iranians. Now if only their mutual hatred for Israel is trumped by their other differences, we may have a glimmer of hope.

And I leave you with the question -- what would Andrew do? I know you'd prefer the Israelis do as you'd like the West and US specifically to do -- make themselves more lovable. But when speaking realistically and not from a prone, eyes closed, drifting off into dreamland view, what would Prime Minister/Defense Minister Schlomo Herofix do?


Susan

PS As I write this, I hear that Hezbollah rockets have hit Haifa.


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
10. Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:46 AM
jordan RE: And now, Lebanon

 Admin
 Member Since
 12/17/2005
 Posts:2274

 View Profile
 Send PM

I chuckled when I read this line, Susan:

"It's been the Israeli's method to strike back with disproportionate force to actions taken against its population and I won't belabor the reasons for that."

I chuckled becuase when you look at the disporptionate amount of captives that Israel has handed over to others for their soldiers (the article above tells us the history), I find it funny that no one criticizes "the others" for requesting such a disportionate amount in order for Israel to get back just a few men.  Does 500 Arab prisoners and body equal one spy and three soldiers? Or 3 soldiers for 1150 people? Talk about disportinoate. And how many of those 1500 or so people just go right back into the field going after Israel to only cause more deaths on both sides?

It's always Israel who is criticized. It's rare to see "the others" criticized for their own misdeeds. Its' getting to the point where it's almost funny to see the same faces come on TV and to hear "Poor ol' Arabs (or whomever), and BAD BAD Israel."

Seriously....Israel pulls out of Gaza (much to the anger of their own people). And here we are now. Israel took some huge steps toward peace and yet back to square one because of militant forces.  


Jordan .

 
11. Thursday, July 13, 2006 5:05 PM
herofix RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:2500

 View Profile
 Send PM
QUOTE:

It's always Israel who is criticized. It's rare to see "the others" criticized for their own misdeeds. Its' getting to the point where it's almost funny to see the same faces come on TV and to hear "Poor ol' Arabs (or whomever), and BAD BAD Israel."


 I'm going to disagree with that Jordan.

 

As far as what Schlomo Herofix the Israeli Defense Minister (long may his tribe increase) would do about this situation, I suppose I would target Hezbollah and not Lebanon as a whole.  I might ring Taba and see if we could hash out some sort of UN or what-have-you force to put in place where they're needed and present it to Prime Minister Nuart in the hope to get that ball rolling.  I'd think about using up any stored annual leave........


An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
 
12. Thursday, July 13, 2006 5:44 PM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

Damned glad to have you on the team, Schlomo!  Now if you have any swell ideas on how to limit the assaults to Hezbollah have your people call my people and we'll take a meeting.  Lunch meeting preferably.  We Israeli PMs like to eat while we work!

Susan 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
13. Thursday, July 13, 2006 8:03 PM
cybacaT RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 5/25/2006
 Posts:1216

 View Profile
 Send PM

My take is that the situation was relatively calm, then inflamed by the original kidnapping.

Israel's response is perhaps targetting a wider audience than the perpetrators in the gaza strip.

Then Hezbollah took some prisoners, and again Israel responds decisively targetting a wider audience.

Israel is a dust speck on the large expanse that is the ME, and is almost universally despised.  If the US weren't backing Israel, it would cease to exist within 24 hours imho.  So when Israel is targetted, they must make a noticeable response so their many enemies don't get ideas. 

Militarily they clearly have far superior resources to their opponents, so it's kinda like a kid poking a sleeping bear.  Every now and then the bear will wake up and take a swipe back - and it'll hurt.  Best to leave it alone and keep the peace.

It seems the terrorists want to provoke disunity and conflict.  They want Israel to respond predictably with strong action.  Then they want to rally their locals, in order to bring the conflict to a head.  Israel needs to respond decisively and then back right off to maintain the peace - that's the best course of action - and that's about now.

 

 
14. Friday, July 14, 2006 4:37 AM
jordan RE: And now, Lebanon

 Admin
 Member Since
 12/17/2005
 Posts:2274

 View Profile
 Send PM

"I'm going to disagree with that Jordan."

Which I knew you would. :) And I know what I said isn't all that factual, but it is the impression I often receive. And this is another example in fact. When the soldiers were kidnapped, I didn't hear a lot of nations shaming those who did it. Yes, they did, but it was extremely quiet. But now that Israel has stepped up its offensive (or defensive in some ways), you have a bunch of nations coming out and saying how wrong it is. Did the UN try to pass a resolution stating that the soldiers should be returned before the problem got worse? I don't think so, and yet the UN tried to pass a resolution saying that Israel was being a bad little girl for doing what she is doing. According to the article I linked to, it says that the soldier should be released, but I'm sure that was just a small footnote in a larger "shame on you, Israel" resolution. Look at this article - says in one location: "The draft was reworked repeatedly to address concerns that it was too biased against Israel."

No wonder I get the impression that I do when I say that only Israel is criticized.

"Poor Palestine. Bad Israel"

CYBACA: "It seems the terrorists want to provoke disunity and conflict.  They want Israel to respond predictably with strong action.  Then they want to rally their locals, in order to bring the conflict to a head."

See, I think you are right. The role of a terrorist is to create fear and disunity and conflict. That's their job. And so when things start going well (which they were doing) they decide to kidnap a soldier. Conflict started up. So another group decided, "Hey this is fun, let's kidnap a couple of more and make Israel madder at us" so they do knowing full well that Israel woudl step up their assault. It's a game. And it's time that ISrael stop playing the same game they've been playing and lay down the law on these people and their supporters. Because if they don't, I guarantee you that the Western World will be dealing with the same.  


Jordan .

 
15. Friday, July 14, 2006 8:24 AM
herofix RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:2500

 View Profile
 Send PM
Can the UN issue resolutions against the kidnappers though?


An Inverted Pyramid of Piffle
 
16. Friday, July 14, 2006 8:34 AM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

Israel would disappear in 24 hours without US support? I don't think so. Israel held her own in a far weaker position in 1948 when attacked by 5 neighboring Arab states without any US support. In fact the aid to Israel until the peace accords were signed with Egypt in the 1970s was not particularly notable but they still prevailed in 1967 and 1973. Both Egypt and Israel benefitted greatly financially from their official relations with one another though Israel had to forfeit the only land that had the "black gold" to Egypt. After which, both countries received equal US aid. 

This morning I've been listening to the UN. The Israeli ambassador gave such an incredible speech that I shall be looking for the transcript later today. He appealed to the Lebanese ambassador, looking him in the eye and addressing him directly to say, "I know if you could, you'd be sitting here beside me reiterating the same thing I'm saying." He told the UN that Lebanon will be the beneficiary of Israel's actions in freeing their country which is being held hostage. Something like that.

It happens every now and then where I hear a leader of a nation speak and I say to myself, what if GWB could speak like that.

Sigh...

Not happy to see that Pope Benedict is "strongly deploring Israel's attack on Lebanon."  

Sigh, and sigh again... 

Susan



     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
17. Friday, July 14, 2006 9:01 AM
jordan RE: And now, Lebanon

 Admin
 Member Since
 12/17/2005
 Posts:2274

 View Profile
 Send PM

Yeah, the UN could pass a resolution AGAINST any country that is harboring terrorists and tell them that they should do something within their own borders to get whomever (in the draft they admonished the groups that took the soldiers so why not do that initially?). My guess is that they could pass a non-binding resolution against the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers if they wanted to. It'll be useless in either case since the UN has no real teeth, but I just find it funny that they only start talkign about a resolution only AFTER Israel has increased their response and then they spend more time admonishing Israel, then admonishing the people who started this whole current ordeal.

Pay attention to the timeline of when things happen, and you'll start to notice that in the majority of cases, world leaders only start raising their voices when Israel starts fighting back. How about raising some voices BEFORE Israel has to defend herself?  


Jordan .

 
18. Friday, July 14, 2006 10:39 AM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

The UN is a sorry excuse for an organization, unfortunately, but obviously.  I got a bang out of listening to the infernal drone of the translator for each country condemning both Hezbollah and Israel as if they were both naughty children who needed the sage and measured advice from Ghana or Peru or (gag) Syria who engaged reporters in the hallway with his alternative revisionist views. 

Here's my favorite statement that says nothing...

We condemn all acts of violence regardless of whether it's Israeli agression or ________ fill in the blank aggression.

If the LA Unified School District and the NY School District are too large and unwieldy to be functional, so is an organization that purports to represent the Whole International World. *

Susan

* Special Thanks to Yassir Arafat.  (gotta love that expression!)


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
19. Friday, July 14, 2006 12:52 PM
jordan RE: And now, Lebanon

 Admin
 Member Since
 12/17/2005
 Posts:2274

 View Profile
 Send PM

Thought some of you might be itnerested (Susan - I nkow you will be):

http://www.radioblogger.com/#001750

Here's the first part: 

"Palestinianization, Arabization and Islamization with Mark Steyn and Hugh"

HH: Joining us now to discuss these events and others, Mark Steyn, columnist to the world. You can read all of his work at Steynonline.com. Mark, do you hope the Israelis march to Damascus?

MS: I think...I don't know that I'd put it as high as hope, but I think they have to be punitive. In the end, when one is as sophisticated about the Middle East as experts like to be, even the great Middle Eastern expert, Bernard Lewis, summed up the region in these words. Get tough or get out. Israel doesn't have a choice of getting out, so in a sense, it has to get tough.

 


Jordan .

 
20. Friday, July 14, 2006 3:03 PM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

Jordan, I was listening to that conversation live while waiting in my gas guzzling (14.2 mpg) SUV yesterday WITH the engine running in the parking lot of the supermarket. I had also heard the Christopher Hitchens interview earlier. Hitchens' comments came as a surprise to Hugh Hewitt, but not to moi as I know his anti-Zionist stance. Hewitt kept saying, "I feel like I'm talking to the old Christopher Hitchens!" I love the guy but I never forget he's the same fellow who maybe went over the hyperbole line in condemning Mother Teresa and demanding Henry Kissinger be brought up for war crimes. Heck, as I recall he wanted Clinton brought up for war crimes after the Sudan aspirin factory bombing.

Mark Steyn, on the other hand, is not so occasionally wacky. Love him!

Susan


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
21. Friday, July 14, 2006 4:22 PM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

Here's the latest from Stratfor. Second in two days. All about Hezbollah and their motives. It begs the question so often posed by situations within the greater Muslim world -- Is hating Israel (L'il Satan) and the US (Big Ol' Satan) a large enough cause for unity amongst 1.3 billion Muslims? It's also interesting to note the common ground shared by the secular and the islamist within Syria and Iran, something we were told could not be a reality with Saddam's Iraq and Al Qaeda's leadership.

The article is very enlightening and helps to explain how uneasy alliances come back to bite you be it Syria for Israel or Saddam's Iraq for the US.   

Stratfor warns us to be on the lookout for Hezbollah to take Western hostages presumably from Lebanon. I wouldn't want to be one of those 25,000 Americans in Lebanon right now. And getting out of town will be no easy task. Even the Saudis had to pile aboard buses rather than their private jets to go home this week.

It's the Middle East, Jake, and plenty complicated. 

Susan

Red Alert: Hezbollah's Motives

Hezbollah's decision to increase operations against Israel was not taken lightly. The leadership of Hezbollah has not so much moderated over the years as it has aged. The group's leaders have also, with age, become comfortable and in many cases wealthy. They are at least part of the Lebanese political process, and in some real sense part of the Lebanese establishment. These are men with a radical past and of radical mind-set, but they are older, comfortable and less adventurous than 20 years ago. Therefore, the question is: Why are they increasing tensions with Israel and inviting an invasion that threatens their very lives? There are three things to look at: the situation among the Palestinians, the situation in Lebanon and the situation in the Islamic world. But first we must consider the situation in Hezbollah itself.

There is a generation gap in Hezbollah. Hezbollah began as a Shiite radical group inspired by the Iranian Islamic Revolution. In that context, Hezbollah represented a militant, nonsecular alternative to the Nasserite Fatah, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and other groups that took their bearing from Pan-Arabism rather than Islam. Hezbollah split the Shiite community in Lebanon -- which was against Sunnis and Christians -- but most of all, engaged the Israelis. It made a powerful claim that the Palestinian movement had no future while it remained fundamentally secular and while its religious alternatives derived from the conservative Arab monarchies. More than anyone, it was Hezbollah that introduced Islamist suicide bombings.

Hezbollah had a split personality, however; it was supported by two very different states. Iran was radically Islamist. Syria, much closer and a major power in Lebanon, was secular and socialist. They shared an anti-Zionist ideology, but beyond that, not much. Moreover, the Syrians viewed the Palestinian claim for a state with a jaundiced eye. Palestine was, from their point of view, part of the Ottoman Empire's Syrian province, divided by the British and French. Syria wanted to destroy Israel, but not necessarily to create a Palestinian state.

From Syria's point of view, the real issue was the future of Lebanon, which it wanted to reabsorb into Syria, or at the very least economically exploit. The Syrians intervened in Lebanon against the Palestine Liberation Organization and on the side of some Christian elements. Their goal was much less ideological than political and economic. They saw Hezbollah as a tool in their fight with Yasser Arafat and for domination of Syria.

Hezbollah strategically was aligned with Iran
. Tactically, it had to align itself with Syria, since the Syrians dominated Lebanon. That meant that when Syria wanted tension with Israel, Hezbollah provided it, and when Syria wanted things to quiet down, Hezbollah cooled it. Meanwhile the leadership of Hezbollah, aligned with the Syrians, was in a position to prosper, particular after the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon.

That withdrawal involved a basic, quiet agreement between Syria and Israel. Israel accepted Syrian domination of Lebanon. In return, Syria was expected to maintain a security regime that controlled Hezbollah. Attacks against Israel had to be kept within certain acceptable limits. Syria, having far less interest in Israel than in Lebanon, saw this as an opportunity to achieve its ends. Israel saw Syrian domination under these terms as a stabilizing force.

Destabilization

Two things converged to destabilize this situation. The emergence of Hamas as a major force among the Palestinians meant the Palestinian polity was being redefined. Even before the elections catapulted Hamas into a leadership role, it was clear that the Fatah-dominated government of Arafat was collapsing. Everything was up for grabs. That meant that either Hezbollah made a move or would be permanently a Lebanese organization. It had to show it was willing to take risks and be effective. In fact, it had to show that it was the most effective of all the groups. The leadership might have been reluctant, but the younger members saw this as their moment, and frankly, the old juices might have been running in the older leadership. They moved.

The second part of this occurred in Lebanon itself. After the death of former Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri, outside pressure, primarily from the United States, forced a Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon. Now, do not overestimate the extent of the withdrawal. Syrian influence in Lebanon is still enormous. But it did relieve Syria of the burden of controlling Hezbollah. Indeed, Israel was not overly enthusiastic about Syria's withdrawal from Lebanon for just that reason.

Syria could now claim to have no influence or obligation concerning Hezbollah. Hezbollah's leadership lost the cover of being able to tell the young Turks that they would be more aggressive, but that the Syrians would not let them. As the Syrian withdrawal loosened up Lebanese politics, Hezbollah was neither restrained nor could it pretend to be restrained. Whatever the mixed feelings might have been, the mission was the mission, Syrian withdrawal opened the door and Hezbollah could not resist walking through it, and many members urgently wanted to walk through it.

At the same time the Iranians were deeply involved in negotiations in Iraq and over Tehran's nuclear program. They wanted as many levers as they could find to use in negotiations against the United States. They already had the ability to destabilize Iraq. They had a nuclear program the United States wanted to get rid of. Reactivating a global network that directly threatened American interests was another chip on the bargaining table. Not attacking U.S. interests but attacking Israel demonstrated Hezbollah's vibrancy without directly threatening the United States. Moreover, activities around the world, not carefully shielded in some cases, gave Iran further leverage.

In addition, it allowed Iran to reclaim its place as the leader of Islamic radical resurgence. Al Qaeda, a Sunni group, had supplanted Iran in the Islamic world. Indeed, Iran's collaboration with the West allowed Tehran to be pictured among the "hypocrites" Osama bin Laden condemned. Iran wants to become the dominant power in the Persian Gulf, and one part of that is to take away the mantle of Islamic radicalism from al Qaeda. Since al Qaeda is a damaged organization at best, and since Hezbollah pioneered Islamist terrorism on a global basis, reactivating Hezbollah made a great deal of sense to the Iranians.

Hezbollah's Position

Syria benefited by showing how badly it was needed in Lebanon
. Iran picked up additional leverage against the United States. Hezbollah claimed a major place at the negotiations shaping the future of Palestinian politics. It all made a great deal of sense.

Of course, it was also obvious that Israel would respond. From Syria's point of view, that was fine. Israel would bog down again. It would turn to Syria to relieve it of its burdens. Israel would not want an Islamic regime in Damascus. Syria gets regime preservation and the opportunity to reclaim Lebanon. Iran gets a war hundreds of miles away from it, letting others fight its battles. It can claim it is the real enemy of Israel in the Islamic world. The United States might bargain away interests in Iraq in order to control Hezbollah. An Israeli invasion opens up possibilities without creating much risk.

It is Hezbollah that takes it on the chin. But Hezbollah, by its nature and its relationships, really did not have much choice. It had to act or become irrelevant. So now the question is: What does Hezbollah do when the Israelis come? They can resist. They have anti-tank weapons and other systems from Iran. They can inflict casualties. They can impose a counterinsurgency. Syria may think Israel will have to stay, but Israel plans to crush Hezbollah's infrastructure and leave, forcing Hezbollah to take years to recover. Everyone else in Lebanon is furious at Hezbollah for disrupting the recovery. What does Hezbollah do?

In the 1980s, what Hezbollah did was take Western hostages. The United States is enormously sensitive to hostage situations. It led Ronald Reagan to Iran-Contra. Politically, the United States has trouble handling hostages. This is the one thing Hezbollah learned in the 1980s that the leaders remember. A portfolio of hostages is life insurance. Hezbollah could go back to its old habits. It makes sense to do so.

It will not do this while there is a chance of averting an invasion. But once it is crystal clear it is coming, grabbing hostages makes sense. Assuming the invasion is going to occur early next week -- or a political settlement is going to take place -- Western powers now have no more than 72 hours to get their nationals out of Beirut or into places of safety. That probably cannot be done. There are thousands of Westerners in Beirut. But the next few days will focus on ascertaining Israeli intensions and timelines, and executing plans to withdraw citizens. The Israelis might well shift their timeline to facilitate this. But all things considered, if Hezbollah returns to its roots, it should return to its first operational model: hostages.

 


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
22. Saturday, July 15, 2006 5:35 PM
Raymond RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:1664

 View Profile
 Send PM

  "Not happy to see that Pope Benedict is "strongly deploring Israel's attack on Lebanon." 

It was renegade lame duck Vatican Sec. of State Soldano who made the anti-Isreali statement while " Ben" is on vacation. He should have fired Soldano before his vacation,and Ben should retract the statement. Soldano has spewed anti-American and anti-Isreali statements for years.

 ROMA, July 14, 2006 – Benedict XVI’s second summer as pope opened with a lightning visit to Valencia, Spain, and will close with a visit to his native land of Bavaria, from September 9 to 14. He has already announced, after his return to Rome, that his first act of governance will be the change of the secretary of state, with cardinal Tarcisio Bertone (see photo) replacing cardinal Angelo Sodano.

http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=71323&eng=y

-----------------------------------------------------

There seems to be more criticism of Hizballah (another name like Quaddafi that can be spelled 12 different ways ) from Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia than from Chiraq and Putin:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=73992

 

 

 
23. Saturday, July 15, 2006 6:38 PM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM

But do you think Pope Benedict was in disagreement, Raymond?

As I was saying to friends earlier today, the Pope must feel like a head of state being that the Vatican has a flag, postage stamps, and fearsome Swiss guards that are almost like a military. b

You know there are other principalities and itty bitty mini-states who might also like to voice an opinion. Have we heard Prince Albert of Monaco on israeli agression yet? How about the Prince of Liechtenstein? In fact, I'm mighty curious to know their views on birth control, the death penalty and illegal immigration.

Here's a few of the recent "decrees" of Pope Benedict:
The Pope strongly condemned the Mohammed cartoons, first published by a Danish newspaper and later in other European papers

On April 16, 2006, Pope Benedict XVI called for a peaceful solution in the nuclear standoff with Iran.

Pope Benedict XVI condemns pre-emptive war. It is the pope's view that the invasion of Iraq "has no moral justification."

Pope Benedict XVI has called for Christians "to open their arms and hearts" to Muslim immigrants and "to dialogue" with them on religious issues.

On June 3, 2006, The Pope has told Prime Minister Tony Blair to pursue diplomatic solutions to problems in the Middle East, including Iran.

On June 12, 2006,- The Pope is supporting Germany, but not just because he hopes that his country wins the World Cup. The Pope 'is very impressed by the joyous atmosphere in Germany in this World Cup. Juergen Ruettgers said that there are now more than one million Muslims in North Rhine-Westphalia and that he had outlined to the Pope how his administration is trying to guarantee the Muslim minority, welcome, respect, and integration.

On June 14, 2006, - Pope Benedict XVI urged Israelis and Palestinians to return to negotiations after the "increasingly blind" tit-for-tat violence of recent days. It also urged the international community to "rapidly activate" funds for humanitarian aid to Palestinians.

On June 23, 2006,- Pope Benedict XVI called for 'serene and peaceful coexistence' in the Middle East.'

On July 14, 2006,- The Vatican on Friday strongly deplored Israel's strikes on Lebanon, saying they were "an attack" on a sovereign and free nation.

I think it's swell if it makes the Pope feel like a player and fills his days with relevance. But I can't help but feel a wistful regret that the Nigerian Cardinal Arinze was not chosen Pope. Oh well, maybe next time. Not that his views would be radically different but he probably woulnd't root for Germany in the World Cup.

Susan


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
24. Saturday, July 15, 2006 6:27 PM
nuart RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:7632

 View Profile
 Send PM
This sounds promising but I'll wait to release my held breath. If this plan succeeds it would be one giant step for mankind. Hold off on the optimism for the time being, Susan.
 
I'm nothing if not patient, Nuart. I have memories of my Lebanese roommate back in Detroit who used to describe the Beirut of the good old Paris of the Mid-East days.
 
Susan/Nuart
'Israel has a window of opportunity to hit Hizbullah'
Herb Keinon, THE JERUSALEM POST Jul. 15, 2006

Israel believes it has a 48-72-hour "window of opportunity" to pound Hizbullah and damage its operational capabilities before the world steps in and stops the fighting, senior diplomatic officials in Jerusalem said Saturday night.

The officials noted positively that Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora had said Saturday at a press conference that his government would reassert government authority over all Lebanese territory - an allusion to the possibility of deploying the Lebanese army in south Lebanon, which is effectively controlled by Hizbullah.

Senior sources in the Prime Minister's Office said that dislodging Hizbullah from southern Lebanon and getting the government in Beirut to assert its authority over the area as called for by UN Security Council Resolution 1559 were among the primary goals of the IDF's current campaign. However, the officials said, the two abducted IDF soldiers also needed to be returned.

"It is a good plan," one senior diplomatic official said of Saniora's statement. "The big question is whether he has the ability to do it."

The official said the deployment of Lebanon's army south would be a good way out of the crisis. "But Israel would also like more time to inflict more damage on Hizbullah's operational capabilities," he said.

"It's an excellent declaration but he doesn't need our permission...We have to see what they do and not what they say," Vice Premier Shimon Peres told Israel's Channel 2 TV. He said Lebanon has to prove it is serious by deploying on the southern border. "A foreign body has entered the area and it's your job to get them out of there," he said.

During the press conference, Saniora - his voice shaking with emotion - called for an immediate cease-fire brokered by the United Nations. "We call for an immediate and comprehensive cease-fire under United Nations auspices," he said in a televised speech aired on local and Arab satellite television channels.

Saniora criticized Hizbullah without naming the group, saying Lebanon "cannot rise and get back on its feet if its government is the last to know." "The government alone has the legitimate right to decide on matters of peace and war because it represents the will of the Lebanese people," he said.

"We call for working to extend the state's authority over all its territories in south Lebanon, in cooperation with the United Nations, and working to recover all Lebanese territories and exercising full sovereignty of the state over those territories."

The assessment in Jerusalem of a 48-72 hour window of opportunity for further military action came as Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz met Saturday evening in Tel Aviv to approve further action against Hizbullah. European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana is expected in Jerusalem Sunday, as is a high-level United Nations delegation dispatched by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan.

In addition, Jerusalem is keeping a careful eye on declarations coming out of the G-8 summit in St. Petersburg, a meeting of EU leaders Monday, and the UN Security Council.

So far, one senior diplomatic official said, Israel has been able to fend off a "collapse on the diplomatic front." The official noted favorably the comments made by British Prime Minister Tony Blair Friday, in which he refused to condemn Israel, and US President George Bush's comments at the G8 summit during which he placed responsibility for the situation fully on Hizbullah's shoulders.

Although many statements coming from foreign ministries around the world called for Israeli restraint and for the use of proportionate force, Foreign Ministry officials said that this was all within the framework of "agreed upon language that the EU is recycling - old formulas of restraint from both sides, and ideas of moral equivalency. But if you look at the basic components of the statements, Israel's main interests are being preserved - calls for Lebanon to implement Security Council Resolution 1559, and the release of the soldiers."

In addition, senior diplomatic officials said a significant anti-Hizbullah line has emerged in the Arab world that goes beyond Egypt and Jordan, and that there was anger at Hizbullah for destabilizing the region and plunging it into a crisis without any coordination with the Arab world.

Sharp rifts among Arab foreign ministers appeared at an emergency meeting in Cairo, with Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal calling Hizbullah's actions "unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible," and said they have set the whole region back years, "and we cannot simply accept them."


This position was reportedly accepted by representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the United Arab Emirates, and Bahrain.

In his address, Saniora declared Lebanon a "disaster-stricken country" and accused Israel of executing an "immoral and illegitimate collective punishment" on the Lebanese people. He appealed for national unity and spoke to the Lebanese people, saying, "We will surpass the ordeal, and we will face up to the challenge. We will rebuild what the enemy has destroyed as we always did."


     
“Half a truth is often a great lie.”

 

Ben Franklin

 
25. Saturday, July 15, 2006 6:39 PM
B RE: And now, Lebanon


 Member Since
 12/18/2005
 Posts:1263

 View Profile
 Send PM
Statements from the Vatican express moral ideals, not political views.  In general, the Pope will condemn war, killing and religious intolerance.  Why is this surprising?


-B
 

New Topic | Post Reply Page 1 of 9 :: << | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | >>
Politics > And now, Lebanon


Users viewing this Topic (1)
1 Guest


This page was generated in 1077 ms.