 |
|
|
|
|
| 1. Sunday, July 12, 2009 11:37 AM |
| newraymond |
Obamacare |
Member Since
2/18/2009
Posts:291
View Profile
Send PM
|
My old friend in New York, a guy who was drafted and served in the U S Army back in the Vietnam War, was a productive Union carpenter and then a contractor, has been for the last three years 100% disabled with OCPD, prostate cancer, hearing loss and war wounds. He was receiving $2,400 per month between Veterans' benefits and Social Security Disability. He had paid into Social Security for decades and served his country. He owes $30,000 in back taxes for not filing for a couple of years back in the nineties. The IRS had been taking $300 per month from his benefits. OK, fair enough, the debt would be paid off in seven or eight years and he would be in his mid sixties. Now, this month the IRS took all his money in the bank - $3,000, AND are now taking 100% of all his benefits !!! He now has NO income. Why the change ? Because Obama, Pelousy, and Reed are desperately going for any money they can get to pay for the Trillions of $$$s they are spending and planning to spend on healthcare? Ironic huh?
I sent this guy some money-cash via registered mail, and he did take a lump of money from his bank a couple months ago, converted to cash and hidden as a defensive move, thank God. He does have some lawyer on this case, but get this. He received the notice yesterday about these changes, and he tells me he has until July 17th to appeal. One week ?? Are other Vets and disabled people being hit like this and have zero $$s squirreled away and now no income at all ? Way to go Obama, put the disabled and disabled Vets in the street to die on Welfare. But it's O K because Congressman Murtha gets his millions for an airport that is not used by anyone. And Timothy Geitner, a tax cheat, gets to be Secretary of the Treasury.
Update: The guy's lawyer told him he was on the case. The guy had money when the case was first settled 18 months ago. Agreement was to pay the full amount but, over time. Anyway the takaway is pay your taxes. No excuses for sickness.
|
| 2. Wednesday, July 22, 2009 9:07 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
12/18/2005
Posts:7632
View Profile
Send PM
|
Man oh man, that was some sorry press conference!!! The part where he suggests doctors may suggest a tonsilectomy for kids with sore throats -- OUCH! -- that's gonna rub the medical professionals the wrong way. And of course saying he wasn't placing blame on Republicans in Congress. After he opened by placing blame on Republicans. There's nothing much better to look forward to than having a slew of government proposals for new medical insurance to peruse in the near future! I hope the reading is as enlightening as straight forward as say... the IRS codes. I hope this one is dead in the water. It's looking that way. Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
|
| 3. Tuesday, July 28, 2009 1:44 PM |
| Kevin6002 |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
7/23/2006
Posts:802
View Profile
Send PM
|
SPECIAL BULLETIN
NATIONAL HEALTH SCARE
By Rick Joyner
When I read the brief on what was contained in the National Health Care bill that is now being presented before Congress, I could not believe I was reading something that was actually being considered in the United States of America. This is not about money or government mismanagement—this is about something far more diabolical than that. As incomprehensible as it may seem, this is about euthanasia, the power to determine who lives or dies in America. Hitler and Stalin would have loved to have had a means such as this for dispatching the millions they killed—it would have made their job much easier, and probably given them the ability to kill many more than they did. THIS BILL IS THAT SINISTER. This is not a joke—this is actually the nature of what is being proposed in the National Health Care legislation, and it is the obvious reason why the Obama Administration wants to ram it through Congress before anyone gets a chance to read it.
I have resolved to always be as generous as I can toward people with opposing views of my own. I do this because I believe it is the mandate of I Corinthians 13 to always believe the best about people, rather than the worst. I know this opens me up to be misled by some, but I consider that a small price to pay to not become cynical. I also do it because I think it is wise to always try and understand the position of my opponents—to be open to consider their positions and not be too rigid or inflexible to change because we all “see in part,” and “know in part.” Because of this, I have been chided for being too generous by giving those I do challenge grace by believing that they had not thought through the consequences of their proposals, or had other good intentioned reasons for doing what they were doing. However, after reading the brief on this health care bill, I don’t see how anyone could not see that there is profound evil and evil intent at work here. I just do not see any way to be any more generous with those who proposed this bill than that. It is that bad.
This bill is obviously designed to put the authority to determine who lives and dies in America into the hands of government bureaucrats. As outrageous as that seems, it is true—you can read it yourself. It even gives the government access to all of your accounts, and the authority to make withdrawals. I know this is hard to believe, but you can read it yourself.
Do you want a government bureaucrat to determine if your mother or father can receive treatment, even in life and death cases? Would you want a government bureaucrat to determine if your child, or you, could receive treatment, even when it means life or death? Think of the best experience that you ever had working with a government bureaucrat, and then think about them having the power to make a potentially life or death choice for your child, your parents, or for you. This is actually what is being proposed.
Add to that chilling thought the fact that this bureaucrat does not have to know one thing about medicine to be in that position. In fact, this bill proposes letting the government define what quality health care is and impose that definition on health care workers. Nowhere does it even specify what training, expertise, or qualifications this all-powerful government bureaucrat has to have to be placed in the position to make such ultimate decisions for the health, well-being, and even the lives of Americans.
Am I being too hard on bureaucrats, or the Obama Administration’s intentions? Certainly there are many bureaucrats who are sincere and true public servants. I agree that such are deserving of our appreciation and respect. The modern world could not exist without them. Think of the most noble and conscientious there are. What kind of position would we be putting them in to have to go to work every day and decide who is going to get treatment, who is going to have to go on a waiting list and for how long, and who are they going to have to just let die?
Who could live with such a job? There are many who could, who would just see it as paperwork, and those are the ones who would be in that position because the truly noble ones could not endure it. Hitler found many who could dispatch thousands each day, and then go home and enjoy their own families at night. There are people with that kind of moral disconnect. These jobs will be filled and by the very ones we would never want in such positions.
It is beyond anything I thought I would ever see in my lifetime that such a bill could ever be seriously considered in the U.S. Congress. This bill has the potential for totalitarian control to be imposed on America to a degree that Hitler and Stalin could not have even imagined. With the technology available now, totalitarian control can very quickly be imposed to a degree far beyond what was attained by either the Nazis or the Communists, and this bill has provisions in it for just that. It mandates the sharing of all of your personal information, from just about every conceivable source, with the new health care bureaucracy being set up to implement this national health care system. The penalties for trying to escape this web are serious. This would actually make America into a national concentration camp, and we can be sure that ultimately it will be a national death camp. You do not have to take my word for it—read it for yourself. Below I will include a brief on this bill so that you can look it up, chapter and verse.
I am a pastor and a watchman, and I therefore have a mandate to watch out for the people, and to sound the alarm when I see a threat. I have never seen one like this before. Even so, I have prayed for restraint and calm as I address this, and do not want to exaggerate anything. In spite of this terrible evil that is manifesting itself through the Obama Administration, I am resolved to pray for our government leaders, and I try to pray for the President every day. My sincere hope is for a spiritual awakening for him and for those in every government position, and for the Lord to give them wisdom and help for the most difficult task they have. However, with all due respect (and I mean this), what is coming out of the Obama Administration is evil, more evil than anything I thought I would ever see in America. It is time to call it what it is.
In the early 1990s, myself and a few other prophetic friends were all shown separately, but at the same general time, that the same evil that gained access to Germany in the 1930s was going to seek access to America. I have shared this often since then, and have made many trips to Germany to seek to understand what happened there. Col. Eugene Bird became one of my dearest friends, and I spent many days with him listening to what he had learned about this, which was considerable. Col. Bird was the U.S. Commandant of the Spandau Prison that held the Nazi war criminals, and ultimately became the one many considered to be the foremost authority on Nazi Germany. Bird’s insight into how evil can gain entry into the human soul and into governments was remarkable, but I always had trouble seeing a connection that would allow what happened there to actually happen in America. Bird often chastised me for this, warning that it could easily happen in America (Col. Bird lived most of his life in Germany, where he became loved and esteemed by that nation, but he remained a patriotic American to the end). Bird often explained how the evil spirit of death that took over Germany gained entry through its health care system. Now it is easy to see what he was talking about in what is being proposed by the Obama Administration.
In Germany, the National Socialists (Nazis) gradually desensitized the nation to death beginning with abortion. Then they quietly, seemingly with the most noble intentions, rounded up the retarded and insane, claiming that the state could take much better care of them, but no one ever saw or heard from them again. Then they did the same with the elderly. As word slipped out that they were being euthanized, it was explained that war made it necessary to eliminate all of the “useless eaters” so that the troops could be fed, as well as those who worked for the war machine. By that time, the grip of control was too strong for anyone to protest or they would also be sent to the camps. Life became cheaper and cheaper, people became more and more depraved, and millions were slaughtered in the death camps.
America is following a parallel course. If Hitler had a tool such as the health care bill that is being proposed by Congress, along with the technology of control now available, it would have made his task much easier and more effective, and probably resulted in many millions more having been easily murdered.
I have had Presidents, candidates, senators, and congressmen and congresswomen from both parties tell me they have read and appreciated my writings. I have maintained for many years that an eagle needs both a left wing and a right wing to fly, and believe that there are excellent men and women of true conviction in both parties. I realize that by writing with this tenor, I risk being considered an extremist, and maybe risk many relationships, but I cannot be concerned about that. With such an extreme evil threatening our country, I would have a difficult time standing before the Lord on that great judgment day if I did not speak up as boldly, as clearly, and as loudly as I can. Call me an alarmist and I will agree with you—I am going to do my best to sound the alarm against evil in every way that I can, and I don’t think I have ever seen anything with the potential for evil like this national health care bill.
I pray that senators and congressmen from both parties who have courage and conviction will stand up against this terrible impending holocaust and stop this bill. I expect that it will be hard for many who read and understand what this Democratic Administration has proposed not to refer to the Democratic Party as the Death Party from now on, but let’s wait and see how the Democrats in Congress respond to this before condemning them, too. This bill is criminal—it opens the door for a crime against humanity on a level that could easily surpass what happened in the last century. We must hold accountable all who have written, proposed, and sided with this bill—and determine that with all the resources we are given, they will never be elected again for anything.
I pray that every Christian will wake up and rise up to take their stand against what is happening in our country now. If we do, we can stop this. If we don’t, we will have to stand before the Judge having let this happen on our watch. We can expect persecution and even death for standing against such a bold and obvious attack of the spirit of death, but no Christian should fear death, and no Christian will want to live in the world that is now taking shape if we do not become the salt and light we are called to be.
We are in need of the courage and resolve of Gandalf in the Lord of the Rings, who stood before the huge and terrible Balrog demon and declared—“YOU SHALL NOT PASS!” The demon was stopped, and even though it was able to grab and drag Gandalf down with it, Gandalf returned with a new level of authority. It does not matter what the consequences are for standing for truth, as Christians we must stand because it is our basic duty. As the first apostles demonstrated, to be persecuted and to suffer shame for our God and His truth is one of the greatest honors. However, we must do it for more than honor—we must also do it for our children and their children.
Last night on Fox News, a former Clinton Administration council to the President stated courageously that this bill was not just about money, it was about euthanasia. The money part does not make any sense at all, but now that the real evil that is driving this can be clearly seen, we can understand that the Administration really does not care about saving money or providing health care for everyone; rather it is about control. There is already talk about this being about saving money by being able to euthanize the baby boomers so they will not have to be paid social security, or weigh down the health care system with their needs. I’m not ready to go that far, but that is obviously why the Florida congressman declared that this bill was a death sentence for the elderly. That is true.
The only commandment with a promise that it will go well with us, and that we may live long, is the commandment to honor our fathers and mothers. This commandment is found in both the Old and New Testaments (see Ephesians 6:2-3). Killing them when they can no longer be productive, as Hitler and Stalin resolved to do, is the most dishonorable thing we could ever do, and we can be sure will bring the opposite to the blessing promised. As you read the bill, and see how excessively long they stay on the point of being able to determine what and if any care is given to the elderly, you will see it really is chilling. It is obvious this is a primary purpose of those who wrote this bill. I know this sounds far-fetched, and I would not have believed it myself a few days ago, but just read it for yourself.
The following is a brief outline of this bill put together by Mat Staver of the Freedom Foundation and Liberty Counsel (contact info is at the end). The comments by the brief are Mat’s, except where I have noted my own by putting them in italics. The bold is also mine.
After reading, please do not wait to contact your representatives to protest this. If you don’t get through, keep calling, send emails, but do not stop until you know your voice has been heard.
Obama Health Care Plan Details
HR 3200 currently under consideration in the House of Representatives
Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get
Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!
Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!
Pg 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise
Pg 58HC Bill – Gov’t will have real-time access to individual’s finances & a National ID Health care card will be issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your banks accts for electronic funds transfer.
Pg 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange to bring priv HC plans under Govt control.
Pg 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private Health Care plans in the Exchange
Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration your Healthcare!
Pg 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services.
Example - Translation for illegal aliens.
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan
Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - Your Health Care WILL be rationed
Pg 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Individual will be automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.
Pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue Govt on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monopoly.
Pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what you can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public opt plan. NO CHOICE
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer w/ payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll
Pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt provide public opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay).
Pg 195 Officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans financial and personal records.
Pg 203 Line 14-15 HC - “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that. Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.
Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, it does not matter what specialty you have, you’ll all be paid the same.
Pg 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr’s time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.
Pg 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
Pg 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
Pg 272 SEC. 1145. Treatment of certain cancer hospitals – Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable readmissions. (Incentives for hospital to not treat and release.)
Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission-Govt will penalize you.
Pg 317 L 13-20 PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand.
pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!
Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates established of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing.
Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans (Part B), HMOs, etc. Forcing people into Govt plan.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people!
Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Committee. HC by phone/Internet?
Pg 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance [Death] Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life.
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!
Pg 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Gov’t provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
Pg 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The Gov’t has a say in how your life ends.
Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An “adv. care planning consult” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.
Pg 429 Lines 10-12 “adv. care consultation” may incl an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life
(NOTE FROM RJ: The above really does give the government the authority to determine who lives and dies, and when. A government bureaucrat really will be making this decision for you and your loved ones.)
Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?
Pg 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org. Like ACORN?
Pg 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. They will insert Government into your marriage. Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs
PG 502 Sec 1181 Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research Established. – Hello Big Brother – Literally.
Pg 503 Lines 13-19 Gov’t will build registries and data networks from YOUR electronic med records.
Pg 503 lines 21-25 Gov’t may secure data directly from any depart or agency of the US including your data.
Pg 504 Lines 6-10 The “Center” will collect data both published & unpublished (that means public & your private info)
PG 506 Lines 19-21 The Center will recommend policies that would allow for public access of data.
PG 518 Lines 21-25 The Commission will have input from HC consumer reps – Can you say unions & ACORN?
PG 524 18-22 Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund set up. More taxes for ALL.
PG 621 Lines 20-25 Gov’t will define what Quality means in HC. Since when does Gov’t know about quality?
Pg 622 Lines 2-9 To pay for the Quality Standards, Govt will transfer $$ from to other Govt Trust Funds. More Taxes.
PG 624 “Quality” measures shall be designed to assess outcomes & functional status of patients.
PG 624 “Quality” measures shall be designed to profile you including race, age, gender, place of residence, etc
Pg 628 Sec 1443 Gov’t will give “Multi-Stake Holders” Pre-Rule Making input into Selection of “Quality” Measures.
Pg 630 9-24/631 1-9 Those Multi-stake holder groups incl. Unions & groups like ACORN deciding HC quality.
Pg 632 Lines 14-25 The Gov’t may implement any “Quality measure” of HC Services as they see fit.
PG 633 14-25/ 634 1-9 The Secretary may issue non-endorsed “Quality Measures” for Physician Services & Dialysis Services.
Pg 635 to 653 Physicians Payments Sunshine Provision – Gov’t wants to shine sunlight on Docs but not Govt.
Pg 654-659 Public Reporting on Health Care-Associated Infections – Looks okay.
PG 660-671 Doctors in Residency – Gov’t will tell you where your residency will be, thus where you’ll live.
Pg 676-686 Gov’t will regulate hospitals in EVERY aspect of residency programs, incl. teaching hospitals.
Pg 686-700 Increased Funding to Fight Waste, Fraud, and Abuse. You mean like the Gov’t with an $18 million website?
PGs 701-704 Sec 1619 If your part of HC plan isn’t in Gov’t HC Exchange but you qualify for Fed aid, no payment.
PG 705-709 SEC. 1128 If Secr gets complaints (ACORN) on HC provider or supplier, Gov’t can do background check.
PG 711 Lines 8-14 The Secretary has broad powers to deny HC providers/ suppliers admittance into HC Exchange. Your doctor could be thrown out of business.
Pg 719-720 Sec 1637 ANY Doctor who orders durable med equip or home med services MUST be enrolled in Medicare.
PG 722 Sec 1639 Gov’t MANDATES Doctors must have face to face with patient to certify patient for Home Health Svcs.
PG 724 23-25 PG 725 1-5 The same Gov’t certifications will apply to Medicaid & CHIP (your kids)
PG 724 Lines 16-22 Gov’t reserves rt to apply face to face certification for patient to ANY other HC service.
Pg 735 lines 16-25 For law enforce. proposes the Secretary-HHS will give Atty General access to ALL data.
PG 740-757 Gov’t sets guidelines for subsidizing the uninsured (Thats your tax dollars people)
Pg 757-762 Fed gov’t will shift burden of payments to Disproportionate Share Hospitals (DSH) to States. (Taxes)
Pg 763 1-8 No DS/EA hospitals will be paid unless they provide services without regard to national origin
Pg 765 Sec 1711 Gov’t will require Preventative Services including vaccines. (Choice?)
Pg 768 Sec 1713 Gov’t – Nurse Home Visitation Svcs (Hello union paybacks)
Pg 769 11-14 Nurse Home Visit Svcs include-economic self-sufficiency, employ adv, school-readiness.
Pg 769 3-5 Nurse Home Visit Services - “increasing birth intervals between pregnancies.” Govt ABORTIONS anyone
Pg 770 SEC 1714 Fed Gov’t mandates eligibility for State Family Planning Services. Abortion & State Sovereign.
Pg 789-797 Gov’t will set, mandate drug prices, controlling which drugs brought to market. Bye innovation.
Pgs 797-800 SEC. 1744 PAYMENTS for graduate medical education. The government will now control Drs’ education.
PG 801 Sec 1751 The Govt will decide which Health care conditions will be paid. Say RATION!
Pg 810 SEC. 1759. Billing Agents, clearinghouses, etc req. to register. Gov’t takes over private payment sys.
Pg 820-824 Sec 1801 Govt will identify individ. ineligible for subsidies. Will access all personal financial information.
Pg 824-829 SEC. 1802. Govt Sets up Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund. Another tax black hole.
PG 829-833 Gov’t will impose a fee on ALL private health ins. plans incl. self insured to pay for Trust Fund!
PG 835 11-13 fees imposed by Gov’t for Trust Fund shall be treated as if they were taxes.
Pg 838-840 Gov’t will design & implement Home Visitation Program for families with young kids & families expect kids.
PG 844-845 This Home Visitation Prog. includes Gov’t coming into your house & telling you how to parent!!!
Pg 859 Gov’t will establish a Public Health Fund at a cost of $88,800,000,000. Yes that’s Billion.
Pg 865 The Gov’t will MANDATE the establishment of a National Health Service Corps.
PG 865 to 876 The NHS Corps is a program where Drs. perform mandatory HC for 2yrs for part loan repayment.
PG 876-892 The govt takes over the education of our Med students and Drs.
PG 898 The Govt will establish a Public Health Workforce Corps to ensure supply of public health prof.
PG 898 The Public health workforce corps shall consist of civilian employees of the U.S. as Secretary deems.
PG 898 The Public health workforce corps shall consist of officers of Regular & Reserve Corps of Service.
PG 900 The Public Health Workforce Corps includes veterinarians.
PG 901 The Public Health Workforce Corps WILL include commissioned Regular & Reserve Officers. HC Draft?
PG 910 The Govt will develop, build & run Public Health Training Centers.
PG 913-914 Govt starts a HC affirmative action program thru guise of diversity scholarships.
PG 915 SEC. 2251. Govt MANDDATES Cultural & linguistic competency training for HC professionals.
Pg 932 The Govt will estab Preventative & Wellness Trust fund- initial cost of $30,800,000,000-Billion.
PG 935 21-22 Govt will identify specific goals & objectives for prevention & wellness activities. Control YOU!!
PG 936 Govt will develop “Healthy People & National Public Health Perform. Standards” Tell me what to eat?
PG 942 Lines 22-25 More Gov’t? Offices of Surgeon General -Public Health Svc, Minority Health, Women’s Health
PG 950- 980 BIG GOV’T core pub health infrastructure including workforce capacity, lab systems; health info sys, etc
PG 993 Gov’t will establish school based health clinics. Your kids won’t have a chance.
PG 994 School Based Health Clinic will be integrated into the school environment. Say GOVT Brainwash!
PG 1001 The Govt will establish a National Medical Device Registry. Will you be tracked?
Mathew D. Staver*
Founder and Chairman Dean and Professor of Law
Liberty Counsel Liberty University School of Law
Offices in Florida, Virginia and the District of Columbia, Lynchburg, Virginia
(800) 671-1776 - Telephone (434) 592-5300 - Telephone
www.LC.org
|
| 4. Wednesday, July 29, 2009 10:34 AM |
| Rigpa |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
9/1/2008
Posts:483
View Profile
Send PM
|
All this screaming about "government bureaucrats" deciding whether we live or die bugs the hell out of me. Right now, we have INSURANCE BUREAUCRATS deciding on our medical treatment. IS THIS BETTER??!!! Workers for insurance companies are given bonuses when they deny treatment. This is already leading to deaths. Come on. Americans die earlier and live sicker than any other developed country. According to the CIA World Factbook, the U.S. ranks 28th in infant mortality (comparable to Croatia, Lithuania, and Taiwan) and 45th in life expectancy (age 78). Unfortunately, Americans NEED to be told what to eat. Childhood diabetes is heading off the charts. There is practically no FOOD in our supermarkets, only delivery systems for high fructose corn syrup, sugar, and salt. The typical American diet is abysmal, and can only lead to ill-health, for which we all pay. I have friends in both England and Canada, who are very happy with their health care. In the U.S., the rich can afford health care, the poor can get government help, and middle America gets screwed. No doubt we have a hell of a challenge to craft a health care plan, but it needs to be done, and heavy-handed scare tactics about what is currently on the table is no help at all. Edit: Here is just one link among dozens about insurance company's denial and delay of treatments. http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2008/10/insurance_indus.html A quote from the article: The AMA and ACOEM cookbooks allow UR (utilization review) doctors who have not interviewed or examined injured workers to review treatment proposals and to delay, deny, or modify treatment. UR doctors are allowed to overrule properly licensed doctors who have spent hours with their patients. UR doctors who make decisions about workers injured in California do not need to be licensed in California. Any license will do. UR doctors do not have to interview or examine injured workers. UR doctors review paperwork to do their jobs.
"I'm talking about seeing beyond fear, Roger. About looking at the world with love."
|
| 5. Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:19 AM |
| R_Flagg |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
1/8/2006
Posts:416
View Profile
Send PM
|
Thank you Rigpa for the sanity check on this topic! R_Flagg 
|
| 6. Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:29 AM |
| Booth |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
8/20/2006
Posts:4388
View Profile
Send PM
|
And the leader said to his followers: Now is the time for healthcare skelter.
|
| 7. Thursday, July 30, 2009 2:02 PM |
| MayRay |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
4/14/2008
Posts:505
View Profile
Send PM
|
The only people who get worked up over government healthcare are ones who have good jobs and can afford their own. I have no healthcare. If I were to get in an accident or get cancer or something, I would be up shit creek. The problem with this country is that there is no sense of social responsibility. The rich folk don't seem to think that their waitresses and store clerks deserve the same healthcare that they enjoy.
|
| 8. Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:33 PM |
| Kevin6002 |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
7/23/2006
Posts:802
View Profile
Send PM
|
Yeah, but the health care they are trying to pass is not the same health care the rich enjoy. I don't have health care and I am not rich. I am for restoring health care, just not this thing. And as far as not liking what is on the table, most of this stuff should not be on the table to start with. It seems like Obama is using health care the way Bush used terrorist to control the American people. If this plan is so good why do they want to pass it so fast before people have had time to read it.
|
| 9. Friday, July 31, 2009 2:45 AM |
| 12rainbow |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
12/19/2005
Posts:4953
View Profile
Send PM
|
| QUOTE:The only people who get worked up over government healthcare are ones who have good jobs and can afford their own. I have no healthcare. If I were to get in an accident or get cancer or something, I would be up shit creek. The problem with this country is that there is no sense of social responsibility. The rich folk don't seem to think that their waitresses and store clerks deserve the same healthcare that they enjoy. |
Weeeelll, I'm am below the poverty level and I haven't had health insurance for many years. And I am thoroughly against socialized healthcare.
I've also been lucky. No sickness, no injuries. I only got it back then, through work, for the dental benefits-- to get my wisdom teeth out.
When there is a paycheck coming in and I'm not living solely on credit, and I've never had a job or salary where I could afford to let any more of it go to taxes and still eat and pay rent, I DO NOT want to pay for other peoples' sickness and injuries-- especially those caused by they own mistakes (ie. smoking, drunken driving accidents and diseases caused by alcoholism, obesity-related disease, unplanned preganancy etc.)
If specialized treatment for certain chronic hereditary conditions gets any worse with Obamacare-- these are those same pesky "pre-existing conditions" that privatized insurance doesn't cover anyway-- there will be sick people who longed for the days of paying out of pocket or being/owing hospitals for a lifetime.
|
| 10. Friday, July 31, 2009 5:22 AM |
| MayRay |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
4/14/2008
Posts:505
View Profile
Send PM
|
I think the thing above is being misread. That section doesn't say that the government can say whether you live or die. It is mearly saying that you need to get your shit in order ie do you have a dnr? Who has power of attorney? Have a living will. These things are good because it keeps your family from having to make tough decisions. It also seems to be saying that money shouldn't be wasted on unnecessary treatment for terminal patients. There is so much waste and bueracracy in the healthcare system today anyways. I don't know how it could get any worse. 12, you are paying for other's bad health choices already. It's called public aid and paying taxes. Any country that has a government run healthcare program seems to like it. Why are we so resistant in this country? The system we currently have was set up by Nixon as a money making venture. Why is that good?
|
| 11. Friday, July 31, 2009 7:20 AM |
| jordan |
RE: Obamacare |
Admin
Member Since
12/17/2005
Posts:2274
View Profile
Send PM
|
MayRay - govt run health insurance can get MUCH worse than what we have now. Not to mention it will bankrupt the US to the point where we can't do anything to turn it around (if we aren't already passed that point). And if we have passed that point, then we really shouldn't be doing this. Because if the US govt can't sustain itself, you can kiss health care, education, security all goodbye.
The biggest mistake we are making with health care is NOT that we need a public version of health care, it's the fact that the current system could be tweaked, revised, upgraded so that some of the issues that we have with it could be improved.
But instead of doing the smart thing, the govt wants to go to the extreme and just handle it itself.
Libertarians and anyone concerned about your freedoms should be very concerned with govt run health care.
Jordan .
|
| 12. Friday, July 31, 2009 8:35 AM |
| MayRay |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
4/14/2008
Posts:505
View Profile
Send PM
|
All I'm saying is that if it works for many of the other nations on this planet, why not us?
|
| 13. Friday, July 31, 2009 9:05 AM |
| Booth |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
8/20/2006
Posts:4388
View Profile
Send PM
|
| QUOTE:All I'm saying is that if it works for many of the other nations on this planet, why not us? |
American exceptionalism.
|
| 14. Friday, July 31, 2009 9:38 AM |
| R_Flagg |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
1/8/2006
Posts:416
View Profile
Send PM
|
| QUOTE:All I'm saying is that if it works for many of the other nations on this planet, why not us? |
I agree MayRay. The argument about the government going bankrupt doesn't have any weight in my opinion. I am getting older now and I can't recall how many times in the past people have said that X gov program is going to bankrupt the nation. Years back it was Social Security, etc. Now its health care, bailouts, etc. The world will not end. I'm honestly not a huge fan of expensive gov programs but I would rather have my tax dollars go towards helping people who need help instead of a certain war or NASA sending more probes to Mars, but I pay because I support U.S. initiatives. Why not health care? I hate that greedy heath insurance bureaucrats help only those who are well off to begin with. Get rid of private health insurance and the cost of medical care might actually become affordable! I honestly think the health care bill will never pass. To many rich people have to much to lose to ever let it happen.
Most people don't think about or really care much about their health care until they actually need it. or don't even care if they have it or not. Then if they are stuck with a medical emergency and have no care they will most likely be bankrupt themselves for the rest of their lives. R_Flagg
|
| 15. Friday, July 31, 2009 2:23 PM |
| jordan |
RE: Obamacare |
Admin
Member Since
12/17/2005
Posts:2274
View Profile
Send PM
|
Didn't say the world will end. :-) Sooner or later the debt the US has acquired is going to bite us in the butt and it's going to very, very painful. And it may be so painful that the US govt is going to have to cut services or raise taxes so high that it's going to have a massive effect on people.
how about encourage people to buy health insurance by providing tax breaks for people? Or give businesses tax breaks for providing insurance to employees instead of mandating that companies do it?
We all put money aside for mortgage, rent, car insurance, all sorts of stuff every month (stuff we often don't need). Why not health insurance - even the most basic? For a year, Kelly and I put money aside to buy her insurance until my own insurance improved at work.
My parents keep paying for my mom's insurance every month, while my dad is covered by the VA.
When I look for jobs, I am looking for a job that provides insurance. And if they don't then I look elsewhere, or make sure that the raise I get will make up for the loss of health insurance. It's what I feel is the right thing to do for me and my own.
And I'm not wealthy, I am middle class.
Here's why you don't get rid of private insurance - then you have no competition. No competition means the govt can make any rules they want based on whatever political power is in there. Do some of you really want the "evil rich" GOP deciding your health care and making those policies?
Here's the thing guys - I'm okay with public run health care IF IT'S THE SAME HEALTH CARE THAT OUR POLITICIANS ARE GETTING. Anything different or less, we need to say NO to. Don't agree to anything less than Peolisi herself is getting from the US govt.
Jordan .
|
| 16. Saturday, August 1, 2009 7:59 AM |
| nuart |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
12/18/2005
Posts:7632
View Profile
Send PM
|
This is such a huge topic. I want to have some dinner so I won't address too much but to say that there is a lot of waste. There is Medicare overbilling. There is the high cost of malpractice insurance. There is public care available for any human who walks into an emergency room and that eats a giant chunk out of a hospital's budget. Medicaid too. One thing I see frequently at our hospital in Southern California is an good percentage of foreign couples who come to the US to have their babies, who automatically become US citizens. They ask if I can take passport photos (Newborn photographer) because they want to leave the US and return home but want to get that social security card for their newborn and that US citizenship. What the goal is after that, I'm not so sure but I believe there are many which include the right to bilk our system into the future. Don't know for sure but could Google it and see what people are up to. I have two close friends -- one in his 50s, the other in his 60s but not Medicare 65 yet -- who both have colon cancer. They have both been treated at a UCLA hospital for... ZERO dollars. Top oncologists. Neither had health insurance and neither had any means to speak of. The hospital inquires as to what you can afford to pay. And they work around your wages. If you can't work, as these two could not, then they also provide some living expenses via social services from the state. The way I see it, you are better off being VERY well insured or UNINSURED. Somewhere in the middle is not so hot with catastrophic illness. Medical care costs more today because of the wonderful new techniques, surgeries, and pharmaceuticals. Canadian doctors with limitations on their earnings via state-controlled health care, flock to the US to work. As do wealthy Canadians seeking rapid high quality care. One thing I really don't want to do is to start sorting through government-ese brochures on their wonderful selection of policies. Jordan, you probably heard the talk today about the Obama Clunkers for Dollars program, right? How miniscule a program it was in comparison to reinventing US health care. What a mess and what a disaster! The government miscalculated the costs! They ran out of money in the first WEEK in a program scheduled to run through October. And we want to trust these... less than mental giants to reform our health care system??? I would trust them to work on any logical cuts like charging $500 to medicare for a pair of hospital booties, for example. Or any similar rip-offs of the system. More than that? Nope. Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
|
| 17. Friday, July 31, 2009 9:16 PM |
| jordan |
RE: Obamacare |
Admin
Member Since
12/17/2005
Posts:2274
View Profile
Send PM
|
Susan, I did see that. Program being canceled today because they can't afford it. For an administration who has its pulse on the country, I'm sorta surprised, but i know i shouldn't be.
there's so many other fixes (like $500 booties) that could be done BEFORE we head on over to public-run health care that would improve the system. Digitize medical records. Reduce paperwork. Kill a few vulture lawyers. Protect doctors and hospitals from frivolous lawsuits. Change laws so that if a panel of doctors believe that a certain treatment must be done, the insurance company must allow it.
I just don't trust govt to do what is in the best interest of a country's citizens. It's too big and bloated and the mess that will ensue...ugh. Don't get me wrong, I don't trust beaucratic businesses either, but at least they have competition and a desire to beat their competition and not lose money so that helps keep those evil insurance companies somewhat in check. govt run, no competition insurance is just going to lead to a bigger mess, IMO.
But as i said before, and I'll say it one more time - US citizens should not settle for anything less than what Pelosi, Reid, Obama, and Biden are currently getting.
Jordan .
|
| 18. Friday, July 31, 2009 10:45 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
12/18/2005
Posts:7632
View Profile
Send PM
|
Jordan, you do a dis-service to your nation not to run for political office. Your take on the issue is so right on. So to speak. ; ) Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
|
| 19. Saturday, August 1, 2009 6:42 AM |
| Nefud |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
8/2/2007
Posts:1793
View Profile
Send PM
|
| QUOTE:Susan, I did see that. Program being canceled today because they can't afford it. For an administration who has its pulse on the country, I'm sorta surprised, but i know i shouldn't be. there's so many other fixes (like $500 booties) that could be done BEFORE we head on over to public-run health care that would improve the system. Digitize medical records. Reduce paperwork. Kill a few vulture lawyers. Protect doctors and hospitals from frivolous lawsuits. Change laws so that if a panel of doctors believe that a certain treatment must be done, the insurance company must allow it. I just don't trust govt to do what is in the best interest of a country's citizens. It's too big and bloated and the mess that will ensue...ugh. Don't get me wrong, I don't trust beaucratic businesses either, but at least they have competition and a desire to beat their competition and not lose money so that helps keep those evil insurance companies somewhat in check. govt run, no competition insurance is just going to lead to a bigger mess, IMO. But as i said before, and I'll say it one more time - US citizens should not settle for anything less than what Pelosi, Reid, Obama, and Biden are currently getting. |
I swear I'm not getting into the fray of this, I just have one question-- it sounds to me like you're advocating increased regulations on the insurance industry, which I find surprising. Am I reading your position right?
|
| 20. Saturday, August 1, 2009 11:21 AM |
| jordan |
RE: Obamacare |
Admin
Member Since
12/17/2005
Posts:2274
View Profile
Send PM
|
Not a huge regulation on the insurance industry but some yes. When mean ol corporate beaucratics can dictate if you can or can't get something when your doctors are saying you need it, then I think that's where part of the problem is.
But simply by converting medical records to digital, you're going to save money on processing fees, and other overhead costs which would help bring down cost overall.
By protecting doctors and hospitals from frivolous lawsuits, you reduce the cost for both to do business and stay in business. When more and more OBGYN doctors are leaving the work force because of the cost of covering their possible legal fees then we have a problem. and theoretically by reducing their own costs, they can pass these costs on to the patient.
I don't believe you need to regulate any industry too much but some is necessary. Being a strong believer in capitalism, if Acme Insurance Company keeps screwing people around they aren't going to be in business. It's in their best interest to do what is right and dare I say, moral and ethical - even though i know sometimes the industry will not (in the name of money). I accept that. But sooner or later, Acme Insurance will be out of business.
the problem with health care is that it is so vital, so important and mistakes are costly. And for that reason, I am a little more liberal in my view on how the industry should be viewed and evaluated. So yes, some regulation may be a million times better than letting a corrupt and bloated govt into the game.
Jordan .
|
| 21. Saturday, August 1, 2009 1:04 PM |
| MayRay |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
4/14/2008
Posts:505
View Profile
Send PM
|
The cost for my father to be airlifted to the university hospital when he had a heart attack was $13,000. I had never heard anything so crazy in my life.
|
| 22. Saturday, August 1, 2009 6:26 PM |
| nuart |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
12/18/2005
Posts:7632
View Profile
Send PM
|
Did he actually pay that $13,000 bill, MayRay? Susan
“Half a truth is often a great lie.” Ben Franklin
|
| 23. Saturday, August 1, 2009 6:49 PM |
| R_Flagg |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
1/8/2006
Posts:416
View Profile
Send PM
|
Can we all agree there needs to be some reform? Most people refuse to discuss it, you are either on one side or the other. The left wants government run health care and the right just wants to see them fail miserably for political gain. Maybe it's best so America can get back to the Michael Jackson saga.
The problem is that if nothing is done the spiraling cost of health care will continue. I agree with Jordan that when choosing a company to work for I look for good coverage at a fair cost. I work for a small company that a few years ago paid all employee's health care in full. A very a good deal. Starting this year the costs have gone up so high that the company is forced to make us pay a modest percentage which will continue to rise every year. They have to because it's to expensive for small businesses to provide as a benefit anymore. I think this is a trend in corporate America that is overextending the average worker. More and more jobs are shipped overseas. We are expected to work more hours for less money and fewer benefits. Now they want us to pay for more and more of our coverage. How is this better than the gov taking more tax money from my paycheck? And who keeps capitalism from devouring itself anyway?
I think MayRay is right that other countries have pulled it off successfully (Canada, Finland, etc) and some not so well. (China, etc) I think we are headed towards a social democracy anyway. Oh, and as long as there are insurance companies and lobbyists there will always be $500 booties.
R_Flagg
|
| 24. Saturday, August 1, 2009 7:01 PM |
| jordan |
RE: Obamacare |
Admin
Member Since
12/17/2005
Posts:2274
View Profile
Send PM
|
My company switched from Blue Cross to Aetna due to cost. I am also in a small/medium size company that pays 100% for me, and I pay 50% for my family. I wouldn't mind paying more into it to continue to receive decent benefits.
R_Flagg, I'm going to suggest that the govt run insurance is going to be WORSE than what you currently have for the money you will put into it. I may very well be wrong and WANT TO BE WRONG. But this govt has a track record of being stupid with our money and having less than desirable outcome with many services. That's just my gut feeling - take it or leave it.
And again, the only way I would change my tune is that if it's the same EXACT insurance that our politicians get. Those making up this bill need to go into it also by default or give the American people what they have. That is the only way we are going to get good govt run health care - if the people writing it are also writing it for THEMSELVES.
One note of interest - current bill is over 1000 pages of mumbo jumbo legalize that doesn't make a lot of sense (I read some of them today while getting my oil change in our local paper). 50+ years ago when Medicare was creating, it was only 55 pages.
Jordan .
|
| 25. Monday, August 3, 2009 9:58 AM |
| R_Flagg |
RE: Obamacare |
Member Since
1/8/2006
Posts:416
View Profile
Send PM
|
Jordan, you probably heard the talk today about the Obama Clunkers for Dollars program, right? How miniscule a program it was in comparison to reinventing US health care. What a mess and what a disaster! The government miscalculated the costs! They ran out of money in the first WEEK in a program scheduled to run through October. And we want to trust these... less than mental giants to reform our health care system??? Susan
|
Seems like they ran out of money because so many more people than expected are actually taking advantage of it. It's popular with consumers, stimulates the economy, Ford sales are jumping because of it, and will be good for the environment in the long run. I don't see the disaster other not realizing how well it would go over and re-adjusting the budget for it. This happens all the time in private sector companies.
R_Flagg
|
|
New Topic |
Post Reply
|
Page 1 of 8 ::
<< |
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 |
>>
|
|
Politics
> Obamacare
|
| Users viewing this Topic (1) |
| 1 Guest |
Powered by JorkelBB 2006 (Version 1.0b)
|
|
|
