I know this was discussed on the old board but I don't think I've seen it on here lately. My question is: How much of the incest/rape act was pure Leland and how much was Bob? After initially watching the tv series I thought that Leland was basically a good guy and it was Bob making him do all the bad stuff(rape, kill). Now I'm not so sure.

What got me thinking was the scene where Leland/Bob is about to murder Laura. Leland tells Laura(after showing her the pages from her diary) something like, "I always thought you knew it was me". Then Bob tells her, "I didn't know you knew it was me". This leads me to believe that Leland thought Laura was "OK" with the sex that had been going on for years and it wasn't until he found the pages in the diary that he understood that she thought the person raping her was actually Bob. The diary and the scene where Laura "sees" Leland for the first time during sex make me believe that Leland had this problem regardless of Bob and his influence. I think from the get-go Leland was in it for the sex and through Leland Bob was introduced to Laura. After all these years of Leland raping Laura Bob became interested in "Becoming" her.

I think someone said on the old board that they believed Leland had THOUGHTS of rape/murder but it was BOB who made him ACT on those impulses. I'm not so sure about this now. The FWWM Leland seems perfectly capable of commiting murder(Theresa Banks) when driven to it. You don't have to be possed by an evil spirit to kill someone or try to kill someone(Hank shooting Leo, Josie shooting Coop).

Any thoughts on this? Was Bob in TOTAL control of Leland from day one? Did Bob have totally different goals than Leland and Leland's actions just help him accomplish those goals? Or to put it simply, what percentage of the rape and murder was committed by Leland or Bob? Example: 90%=Leland, 10% Bob? Any ideas? I'm confused.

someone connected lynch films to Freudian psychology, and I think it's the perfect example. whether or not david was aiming for it specifically it can probably be concluded that it was something like it. this seems to be the struggle between (call it whatever else you want) the id and the superego. as a human being has drives within their id, the superego keeps them from coming out. bob is the notion of the true id. bob feeds on fear, that is, the fear that a person has of having the drives of the id and making sure they don't come out. this is the duality which is obviously the main theme of twin peaks. it is seen in every character, but those who are most fearful (of expressing their id) can be posessed by bob. same goes for laura. at the time she was starting to discover her true drives and began to let them out. she mourned over them and perhaps even felt a sense of guilt, so she was scared. bob sensed she had a more intense will to express "id drives" than leland, so he decided to change the host to her.

i think precisely this is the surreal metaphor that is attempted to be displayed in twin peaks.  or at least what i got out of it.

By personifying the abuse as BOB, we allow ourselves the luxury of commiserating with Leland's own suffering.  We can identify with the part of him that isn't a monster.  If it was just Leland, acting the same way, it would be more difficult to tell the sympathetic side of his story.

Not that this helps answer your question.

I never understood what Bob was saying there. Thanks for clearing that out.

I think there are little bobs haunting every single person. The gifted and the damned are able to see that source of evil. "Normal" persons just live their lives with the actions they do and they are not aware of the spirits who are behind of every evil action and thought men do. Leland was just a child when he opened himself to that evil. Before he died, he remembered "them" (the spirits). That's why I think he had the gift (or damnation) to see the "true face" of evil. He knew the look of the spirits who are feasting on the fear and sorrow of people because he was gifted (or damned). The people who don't have the gift to see it, have been opened up for the "joy" of doing selfish evil things.

Normal people accept the feeling of that "evil" and gifted or damned people see the feeling as an image.

In Laura's case she was this |-| close to become a mentally ill person, seriously ill. She got beaten, raped and tormented and finally at the train car she was about to lose it. We and she saw it at the mirror. If she wouldn't have let herself to be killed, she probably would have lost her mind after all the terror she suffered. She would've lost her mind to Bob. There was absolutely no other way to stop it but allowing herself to die. No-one can get through that kind of hell without getting mentally crushed.

Maybe people who make the final decicion of accepting the evil (Bob) do not question their morals anymore depending on the subject of the evil thought they are choosing to follow - as, I believe, Leland accepted the sexual form of evil as he probably was sexually molested as a child. He might have been a nice guy who do not accept all the evil people do, but when it's about sexual things he's all Bob then (as he doesn't question the things he does when he's craving for sexual pleasure).

BOB is looking for hosts,who can be perfect servants for him in collecting garmonbozia.Leland used to have such sexual  inclinations(like Laura),when he was a child,and this is the best strategy for BOB-to progress these inclinations in his hosts,when they are in their early age.Maybe that's why he chose to possess Laura,because through her he would gain a lot of power.I think Leland was not aware when BOB was in control inside him.Before Leland died he said that when he was inside him,he didn't know that.It's hard for me to believe that Leland would consciously rape his own daughter.

Beware of BOB

When I call out no one can hear me,when I whisper he thinks the message is for him only..my little voice inside my throat,I always think there must be something that I've done or something I can do...But no one no one comes to help,he says,a little girl like you...

I agree Leland would not have conciously murdered his own daughter. Does it say anywahere when Lelands possession started? It was definately there since Laura was a kid anyway. in season 1 its almost impossible to think Leland has anything to do with the murder.. but in fwwm, it does seem that he is aware of whats going on and his evil side is very apparent. its almost as if when he goes into the red room after the murder, and bob takes out the blood that spills on the floor, it was as if he was taking away all memories leland had of the murder and the events leading up to it.. ie: Laura sneeking out of the house, finding the diary with the ripped out pages, the murder.... I think Bob is in control all the time... hes part of lelands character.

what i really think is that Bob is in fact what people recognize as evil in people.. not actually a spirit or presence... leland was probably bi-polar... being two very completely different people at different times and someone, neither carachter recognized the other.

That god damn trailer's more popular than Uncle's Day in a whorehouse!

Putting all the Freudian metaphors and psychology aside for a moment...

Why is it that Leland remembers raping Laura but not killing her? It's this lack of "awareness" of the murder and continued knowledge of the rape that makes me see it like this:

Rape: 90%=Leland, 10%=Bob

Murder: 100%=Bob, 0%=Leland

Wait a minute...

Before Leland/Bob killed Laura he (Leland? Bob?) screamed "Don't make me do this!" after she put on the ring.  So..... Damn, I'm confused all over again!

Beware of BOB

When I call out no one can hear me,when I whisper he thinks the message is for him only..my little voice inside my throat,I always think there must be something that I've done or something I can do...But no one no one comes to help,he says,a little girl like you...

I think that, although eps 16 and 17 basically say that Leland was not guilty of any of it, that it was all BOB, this was not Lynch's original intent. It seems obvious to me that he was trying to present a different argument in FWWM, that Leland was at least partially responsible for the things he did. Also an interesting note: In the original script Laura merely convinces Leland to kill her so that BOB can't possess her. No mention of the ring here (although it is mentioned in other places). In episode 16 Leland says that she made him kill her. Also he had no memory of these crimes until BOB left him. All this combined with the "I always thought you knew it was me" scene, make me think that Leland was responsible for both the rape, and the murder of Laura Palmer. BOB gave him the "strength" to rape her, and he had to kill her so that BOB couldn't posess her; he killed her because he loved her.

That god damn trailer's more popular than Uncle's Day in a whorehouse!

Beware of BOB

When I call out no one can hear me,when I whisper he thinks the message is for him only..my little voice inside my throat,I always think there must be something that I've done or something I can do...But no one no one comes to help,he says,a little girl like you...

It's just my opinion, but I don't think that Leland "wanted" to rape/murder his daughter. That was BOB.  When Bob is not in control, you can see how much Leland loves Laura. Leland fought BOB for most of his life, and when his soul "grew weak and full of holes" I think is when he started to kill people. I think it is genuine sorrow that Leland feels when he realizes everything that he had done under BOB's control. That wasn't HIM. Like he says to Coop in the Red Room, "I did not kill anybody." BOB did.

In the pilot, that is genuine grief of a father losing his daughter---for an example, the first time he sees her body in the morgue. There is no BOB there. It is hard to imagine the Leland at the end of FWWM, to the Leland we meet in the pilot. The weaker Leland got---the more garmanbozia that BOB got--that was when you saw how BOB had full control of him. The question, is when Leland/BOB smashes his head against the cell wall, was that BOB because he wanted to be free of Leland, or Leland because he wanted to be free of BOB? And...was that the case with Dale at the end of 29? Was Dale trying to get BOB out already, fighting from within the red room? I can't see how it could be BOB trying to get out---I am a firm believer that BOB had been after Coop all along---he was his main prize.

I am more than rambling now.

Yes,Leland realised what he had done to Laura,just after BOB got out of him.I think it was BOB who "smashed" Leland's head in the cell,because he was trying to get out of Leland.

And in Cooper's case in ep. 29 I believe it was Cooper who smashed his head,fighting with BOB,he was trying to get him out of his mind.I think Cooper knew that BOB was inside him.It was aware possession.( I support the theory about the Jumping man,who is some kind of representation of Coop's possession---there were  eyes and mouth on his mask---,and Tremonds/Chalfonts ' grandson represents the possession of Leland---there were no eyes and mouth on his mask---this means Leland didn't know that BOB was inside him)So I think Leland had no fault.

And I agree with Rocky,BOB's aim was catching Cooper.BOB knows about the incident with Coop in Pittsburg because I think in a sense he was there at that time(at least in the Black Lodge version of events)

Beware of BOB

When I call out no one can hear me,when I whisper he thinks the message is for him only..my little voice inside my throat,I always think there must be something that I've done or something I can do...But no one no one comes to help,he says,a little girl like you...

ya.. it was Bob who smashed Lelands head in the cell cos he wanted to get out of him.. knowing that the host had been identified and was trapped. Cant wait to see these episodes of season 2 again.... they should arrive today.

what was the idea of the doblegangers (i know ive spelt that wrong) in the red room? are these the bad sides of the people? when cooper is trying to get out of the red room, his one catches him.. the next time we see him, hes possessed by Bob.. does that mean the good dale, the one we knew, is trapped in the red room? and the possessed one is set free in the world? and why do Maddy, Laura and Annie have ones? and coopers ex wife? had she been killed by bob too?

 see this picture above? who was david bowies carachter and is he pointing at cooper here indicating a future event?

I think the legend that Hawk tells to Cooper explains that thing about the dopplegangers.

The legend says that there is a place called the White Lodge where the spirits that rule man and nature here reside.But there is also a legend about a place called the Black Lodge-the shadow-self of the White Lodge.And every spirit must pass through tne BL on the way to perfection.There you will meet your own shadow-self(doppleganger) But if you confront the Black Lodge with imperfect courage it will utterly annihilate your soul.

Coop's soul was trapped in the BL by BOB.Coop meets his doppleganger and faces it with imperfect courage,he runs from it,and when the doppleganger catches him,Coop's soul is annihilated and his body is free to be inhabited by BOB.

I think that the Black Lodge used Coop's past in Pittsburg in order to make him feel fear,so this way he will become weak and won't pass his way to perfection.I think the strange link between Annie and Caroline when one speaks as if she is the other is a projection of the Black lodge,to make Cooper confused and weak.

Beware of BOB

When I call out no one can hear me,when I whisper he thinks the message is for him only..my little voice inside my throat,I always think there must be something that I've done or something I can do...But no one no one comes to help,he says,a little girl like you...

I have many different tasks, but the one that most interests me is the study of UFO's.

First of all, it was Cooper's doppelganger who got out and was "possessed" by Bob. It's information straight from the creator's mouths. The whole banging his head against the mirror could've been just a trick to make everyone else believe he's a bit messed up after all the events and that way people wouldn't suspect him if he'd do something "weird" in the future. That way it could be easier for him to get to his future victims.

About Leland and Bob: 

Bob can go in and out of Leland whenever he wants to. I believe he just wanted to get Leland killed. He hadn't anything to do with Leland anymore so why not he'd kill him and take all the garmonbozia he can get.

You must remember that real people who are using their children to have sexual pleasure usually also love them. They just have a messed up sense of love when they are feeling the urges. Some might have sex with their children, enjoy it, and afterwards feel really bad about themselves and promise that they wouldn't do it anymore (yet still continue on doing it when the temptation rises too high).

Things just aren't so simple. People with a mixed up personality can be both a horrible child abuser and a caring father. Laura was just the same as Leland. She was a wonderful person but she had her dark side. So it is with Leland. There are people in this world who are every single day feeling the "fire" and thinking about their children in a bad way but who are constantly battling against those urges. They might fall or they might not. Leland did and, I believe, mainly because of the lack of conscience when it's about feeding the lust. I think Bob represents that. When a man or a woman isn't able to resist the temptation at all anymore he/she is having a bob inside of him/her.

Laura's nerves were pulled so tight that in the traincar there were only two options: Laura survives and totally snaps or she dies. She knew it. She chose death. In Leland's case, when he was young, he probably totally lost his ability to control his temptation when someone did something quite traumatizing to him. He probably didn't know what was happening so he couldn't stop it. He didn't know he was going to lose the ability so he couldn't do anything about it. So the lack of that ability ( = total freedom for Bob to get in and get out whenever he wants to) was basically forced upon him. It was as easy as beating someone who's all tied up.

All I'm trying to say is that maybe the most of you who are sympathizing Leland probably would hate and despise real-life paedophiles and judge them as completely evil persons, period. And that Lynch and Frost were probably trying to say that people who do such horrible things are still people. Some of them might be wonderful persons when they are not under the control of lust. After all, they didn't choose their fetishes. They didn't choose what they were going to lust for. And some of them are constantly having an enormous battle against their temptation. A fight against a "real-life Bob". Some succeed and some don't. Leland didn't.

 So you think that physically there are two bodies alike?And Cooper's real body is trapped in the lodge and the other one (the doppleganger) is in the real world? 

I got confused.

I thought Coop's soul was trapped in the lodge,and only his body was used by BOB as a host.

Beware of BOB

When I call out no one can hear me,when I whisper he thinks the message is for him only..my little voice inside my throat,I always think there must be something that I've done or something I can do...But no one no one comes to help,he says,a little girl like you...

I've read from an interview that it was supposed to be so that if the show would've continued it would've been revealed that it's Cooper's doppelganger who's in the real world.

 Also "I've been with Dale and Laura. The good Dale is in the Lodge and he can't leave. Write it in your diary" is an obvious hint to the fact.

Read Chris Rodley's Lynch on Lynch. 

Online-Inquirer