Ok guys....here is something that I have ALWAYS been bothered by....and the new DVD set isn't fixing it.

 As most of you know, the PILOT has an alternate ending, which is later used in episode 2 as a dream sequence.  The dream sequence had to be shortened to fit the broadcast time.

Well.....when I show people the series, I always show them the uncut dream sequence, as I have edited together my own copy of episode 2 where the dream plays uninterrupted.  According to Al Strobel (mr. One armed man himself) David wanted to show the entire footage in episode 2....but it simply wouldn't fit in the running time. I love the way bob is shot by mike and then we fade to 25 years later....so cool....and it makes the viewer FORGET they are watching a dream.  I love that about David Lynch material.

I was hoping the box set would have this as an extra AFTER the second episode....because it IS the dream that cooper remembers in the 3rd episode when talking to Lucy and Harry.  Instead....it is at the end of the pilot as an alternative ending, and then the shortened dream is shown in episode 2.

I want to know if anyone else understands what I mean.

When you show people twin Peaks for the first time....do you show the unabridged dream sequence when you show them episode 2?

Having it with the pilot, often makes people confused...since it differs from the what happens according to episode 1. 

Heh... McFly.  :)

Hyde, I don't think showing the extended footage is the best idea, personally, at least until after Laura's killer is revealed.  While I would be all for showing the extended Red Room footage (there's about 20 seconds or so extra where LMFAP and LP hold hands), showing the stuff where Mike says "I know about the stitches with the red thread" and where BOB says "Teresa's was with a 'T'!" would (1) confuse people unnecessarily since there is no payoff to the former and (2) give away a somewhat important plot point too soon for the latter.

In any case, the extended footage wasn't ever a part of episode 2, so I dont think it would be appropriate to put it with it, even as an extra.  You can argue that Lynch intended it this way or that way, but this is all hypothetical because Lynch surely would have edited it down regardless.  Plus, we're getting into the intentional fallacy here, and I tend to shy away from that world of hurt.

"What credit card do you want to put that on?"
"Caash, prease."

I would be remiss in my duties as Super Dweeb if I didn't point these things out, Psycho.  I would do it no matter who posted... so it's nothing personal!

Firstly,

This is "revealed," to the extent that it ever is revealed, in the dream sequence we see at the end of ep 2 anyway, so it could hardly "ruin most of the first season."  We get a little more information in ep 13 regarding BOB being Mike's "familiar," but we can kinda guess toward that in ep 2 since they apparently "lived" together.

Also,

Yes and no; the Euro ending reveals the word to be "Robert" whereas Twin Peaks proper reveals it to be "Robertson."  A slim distinction, perhaps, but important because it is a play on Mike's contention that the victims are BOB's "children," a further play, one might go as far as to say, on the fact that Leland is Laura's father.

Finally,

No, I don't think it does.  Is there a line or something that makes you think otherwise?  Maybe I'm missing something.

Anyway, Dave... what better welcome back to the forum could one hope for than scandalously nerdy fanboy narrative correction?  OH WELCOME HOME!!

As Booth pointed out, the other pilot was extended just to make it a cohesive, feature length product for Europe.  The US was only meant to see until Sarah's vision, and it had nothing to do with broadcast time.

But let's just assume that Cooper dreamed all of the Euro ending, including Lucy and Andy at home and the phone call from Leland, and just forgot huge chunks of it.  Who cares if it's not linear or contradicts what is seen or unseen in the dream sequence.  It's a dream, it's the Black Lodge, and it's not supposed to makes sense,

If you've seen the Euro ending, it just gives the series dramatic irony, which doesn't make it any less effective if you can appreciate the other tensions in the show.

Surely the whole point of the Euro ending was that it wrapped up the mystery in one film thus obviating the need for the series. The idea was to make something which would stand alone if a) the series never got made or b) the series never got shown in Europe. The Euro ending and series are incompatible. The Euro Pilot is an alternative to the series not a starting point. It is included as an extra as a curiosity for completists but it functions against the series.

Saying start with the Euro Pilot is like trying to watch a film with two contradictory endings - for non-linear films this is possible but the whole point of the Euro pliot is that it short circuits the series which was never intended to be seen after the Euro pilot.

Some of us here in Finland tend to call it "Tyttömurhat" as it was titled here back in the day.

Yes,  at least the scandinavian Season 1 DVD set includes the pilot - with the lower quality than rest of the epidodes.

I HAVE 4 responses to 4 things said on this conversation, but for some reason,  I can't post them in 1 post....so please be aware these next 4 responses are all ONE RETARDED retort!

RETORT NUMBER 1

 I am NOT sure about this.  I asked Al Strobel about this during the fest, and he said that the original script had the entire dream sequence used in it...uncut.

Now, he could be wrong of course....but it definatly makes me wonder. 

RETORT NUMBER 2 (only 2 left)

 Well....we KNOW he dreamed about the scene with Lucy and Andy, because in Episode 3 he says, "I had a dream.....Harry, you were there....Lucy, so were you.  In my dream, Sarah Palmer had a vision of the killer.  Deputy Hawksketched his image.  I got a call from a One armed man names mike...the killer's name was bob.  The lived above a convienience store.  They had a tattoo...fire, walk with me....Mike couldn't stand the killing anymore, so he cut off his arm....bob vowed to kill again so mike shot him."

Basically, the next episode recounts almost the ENTIRE Euro-ending, which as I stated before, Al Strobel said was original meant to be shown. 

It just seems to make sense to me. 

By the way, I am sorry about the repeating post.....I am having trouble with my computer and I have to respond to each post individually.

RETORT NUMBER 3 (only 1 retort after this!)

 I see what you mean....yet in the actual broadcast..you still SEE bob for a moment, saying he will kill again....so Dale still got to see him......

So, I don't know for sure what the difference would be in this case.  I have to think about this one.  Interesting.....

RETORT NUMBER 4 (the final retarded, retort...lol)

 Ok/./////last response and then I will await for other responses from you guys.  This is a good conversation!  Keep it up!

Anywho, what I LIKE about including the entire euro ending as the dream sequence is that it is SO indistinct as toi what is a dream and what is real.  I love that....because by the time Mike shoots bob....the viewer has to wait to see if it is a dream or if it is real....and there has been NO hint of the red room ahead of the actual "let's rock" scene.

So when the red room finally appears and it says 25 years later....it is like "what the hell?"  It throws the viewer for a loop.  It kinda duplicates the same effect the Euro-ending has on the pilot, but does it on Episode 2 and then with cooper waking up, it adds closure and explination.

OHHHH, OHHHHH, something else that confuses me..

My FIRST TP fest, we watched FWWM, and before the movie there was a video of Mark Frost saying how he and david were stuck and confuse about a way to add clues in the series.....so they decided to call in a midget and record backwards in a red room.  HOW could this be the case, if the red room sequence was recorded with the pilot, and the dream was never intended to be used in entirety?  Confusing.....this is a question I WISH I could directly ask David Lynch. 

But Cooper SAYS, "BOB VOWED TO KILL AGAIN, SO MIKE SHOT HIM!!!"  when he describes the dream the next morning.

So....that is what happened..but it IS just a dream...so why should it just be a curiousity?

There are two things that gum up the Euro ending if we want to take it as the "full version" of the dream Cooper has in episode two. 

The first is that BOB states what the letters under the nails were going to spell.  What he says, as I have remarked before, is at the very least inconsistent with what they turn out to be in the series, and at the most it totally screws with the fact that Coop is trying to figure out what the letters mean far into the second season.  If he dreamed it, and we heard it, then he should remember (i.e., not like with Laura's whisper in the red room, which we don't hear and which Cooper subsequently forgets).

The second, and one I have previously alluded to above, is one of the remarks Mike makes on the phone to Cooper.  He says, "You know about Teresa Banks, pretty girl they found last year? [...] I know the man who did her.  And I know about the stitches with the red thread.  And there's more I think you'd enjoy hearing. I'm at the hospital now."  This "red thread" did not develop into anything that correlates to the Banks murder, and so makes no sense in the context of Cooper's episode two dream.  Some people have suggested that this refers to Lil's red dress in FWWM, tailored with blue thread; this is a bit of a stretch for several reasons, not the least of which is that (1) Cooper has nothing to do with this scene and (2) Gordon Cole's message to Desmond, while used in the Teresa Banks case, is not specific to it (i.e., the code had to have existed before the Banks murder in order for Desmond to recognize it), so there would be no obvious correlation between Mike, Cole, and Banks in the way the phone message implies.

Of these, I think the latter is the one that is really a problem if you're trying to prove the validity of the whole Euro ending as the unedited content of Cooper's dream in episode two

Well, in the "European ending", Mike mentions the "stitches with the red thread", possibly referring to a detail of the murder of Teresa Banks. In FWWM, in the scene where Mike is shouting madly at Leland and Laura in the car, and Leland is revving up the car engine, Mike says, "The thread will be torn, Mr Palmer, the thread will be torn!"

Now, it could be that Mike is referring to the same thread on both occasions. When he is shouting at Leland Palmer, he could be reminding him of the fact that he killed Teresa Banks, but in an indirect way, not mentioning it specifically.

Regarding Cooper's dream, the next morning he has forgotten what Laura whispered in his ear, so he may well have forgotten other details of the dream, including BOB's explanation of what the letters were supposed to spell. Moreover, it is perfectly possible for Mike to shoot and kill BOB, because this is a dream, and is not actually happening. Perhaps the dream is some kind of message that Mike, LMFAP and Laura Palmer decide to psychically transmit to Cooper to help him solve the crime.

Yes, this is theoretically possible, but it seems unlikely that (1) Mike is referring to a literal thread in the traffic jam sequence or that (2) he refers to a figurative thread on the phone when trying to entice Cooper to the hospital (how would Cooper know what he meant, in this case?).

I already addressed this above.  If we follow the logic of the "dream," then the things we see and hear are the things that Cooper "remembers" when he wakes up.  We cannot hear what Laura whispers to him, and thus he doesn't remember it.  Also, the above quote doesn't address the fact that the answer to the letter riddle given in the extended dream is wrong according to the way the series proper unfolds.

If people really want to believe that the extended eurofilm ending is the whole, unedited dream Cooper has in episode two, it is unlikely that anything anyone says will dissuade them since anything can be rationalized through selective and/or creative interpretation.  However, we must ask ourselves... what do we gain out of this reading?  Why must we rationalize the end as being a part of the Peaks cannon?  Using the same logic, you might argue for the alternate Horne and Jacoby versions of Maddy's murder being cannon according to some other elaborate justification.  I just don't see the point.  These things are separate texts.  Forcing them together seems unnecessary.  I, for one, am capable of processing more than one narrative at once, and I'm sure all of you can as well (or else watching TP would indeed be difficult!).  The "Euro ending" was never meant to be seen, as Cooper's dream or otherwise.  Don't fight it!
 

First of all...I want to thank you guys for such great responses.

 I think I really do see what you mean now....and yes...Bob does tell them he is spelling ROBERT....although the stitches with the red thread have always made reference to Lil's dress being that is their code for drugs, and Teresa and Laura were so into Cocaine.

What about the Red Room scene though...was that SHOT with the european Ending, or was that added later when episode 2 was shot?  The reason I ask is because the exact clues make influence on the rest of the series, and as I mentioned before, Mark Frost did say he and David were having trouble coming up with a way to throw in clues, so they brought out a midget and delt with it. 

So confusing, and I HATE getting all these conflicting reports of what supposedly happened and what was supposedly intended.

LASTLY though...I think I have realized something.

The first time I even SAW twin Peaks was the European pilot edition....with the extra ending.  I just loved the way the red room scene seemed to just jump out at you.   Where as in the aired ending of Episode 2, it is just flashes of a dream at first, and then you see it.   I like just moving to it, as though it may be real.  It is just so damn, WEIRD!!!

However, I definatly see the arguements why it shouldn't be viewed within the series....but I still think there are good arguments to show it in the series too! 

 Does anyone think it is brilliant when Sarah remembers that she saw BOB hiding behind Laura's bed?

I LOVE TH"AT PART

Sorry to disagree here again... but no, I don't think so.  For the reasons mentioned above. Plus, Lil's dress is red and the stiches sewn into it for the code are BLUE.  So the "red thread" doesn't apply here.

I guess I was thinking of the blue rose.  Regarding this "red thread" that Mike mentions in the extended pilot, TP.org says "This is never mentioned again in the series or in FWWM.  Some have suggested a connection to the threads of Lil's dress in the airport coded message scene of FWWM but this seems unlikely since the treads in the dress are not red."  This was written before the DVD was released, however, so maybe they were working off a scratchy copy and just couldn't see. 

Stanley does say, however, "The dress was altered to fit her.  I noticed a different color thread where it had been taken in."  Her dress was red, so it had to be different than red, according to this logic.  Maybe it's just a darker red, as you say. 

Well, I got my DVD out, and, darts and all, it actually looks the same to me, now that I'm looking at it.  That's no help.

However, Hyde, this still doesn't address the question of how Cooper would have known about "the red stitches," if we even assume this is the same thing.  And how would Mike know about Gordon Cole's secret codes?  In any case, it's a pretty obscure reference for him to make in order to entice cooper over to the hospital at 2:30AM.

And anyway... you see how much work this is to have to rationalize and explain the Euro ending as the dream Cooper has in episode 2?  There is not much to be gained from it, I tell you!  I really recommend showing and enjoying the extended pilot scenes after watching through Leland's death in the series.  Not only is this thread clue vague and unhelpful at best, but the letters under the nails clue is still wrong in the Euro ending and will confuse first time viewers.