I think one of the 'problems' with FWWM is Lynch's inability to think in anything other than a cinematic visual language. This is constrained by the small screen in the series and in the film by a lesser ratio than  a normal widescreen presentation.

 However, the only place for FWWM is the big screen and preferably a very big one. There the most striking aspects of the film stand out best.

QUOTE BY Tp3: I'm not really a new member, I used to be James_Bob_Owls_Roadhouse and then another name on this new board but I forgot the name and password so I signed up again.

The next time that happens, just PM one of the admins and we can check that out for you so you don't have to resign up again. In the meantime, I can move over your post count from the old board based on your old username. PMs have been disabled on the old board, so I cannot bring those over. 

Kelly

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~ Amanda

"Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave..."

WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS THREAD?!?! 

Twin Peaks rocks. The end. ;)

Obviously I am/was suffering from watching the ending of TP again as echoed in changing the title of the thread as if I could possibly change the ending of 2022 and that would lead to possible continuation. It's like reading a book and you don't want it to end so you keep re-reading it and attempt to analyse it differently.

The thread title is the original one again now, honestly I changed the title because I was dissatisfied with it and then it descended into madness. Sorry.

There is some interesting stuff to read in this thread overall though and I think post-ep. 2022 disappointment and suchlike is a valid route of enquiry. I am not suggesting I dislike Twin Peaks just because it didn't have a happy ending with everyone hugging and a big wedding for Annie and Coop you know! I just think that TP counts as some of David Lynch's (as well as Frost's, Engels' and all else involved) best and most interesting work, the most captivating. I can re-watch so much of TP and get sucked into the whole aura of it time and again where I can't really with other films by DL possibly because they're so much of an entirety and also because they contain some disturbing aspects that might not be healthy to constantly re-watch. Even with The Straight Story there's a certain over-flowing sadness. TP did contain a lot of humour and even though there were disturbing aspects throughout you can watch an episode that doesn't contain many or even any at all.

Post-2022 and FWWM I was somewhat overwhelmed by the descent into disturbing and psychological turmoil. You have to admit that ep.2022 and FWWM deal with some very disturbing ideas but don't offer much resolution. I've felt since watching a film called 'EVILENKO' on dvd recently (with a TP-esque soundtrack by Angelo Badalamenti) that Twin Peaks as a whole would be different if an older and more sober Lynch returned to it. His work has matured since 1992 for definite.

Honestly I don't expect Lynch to revive TP, I mean where is the demand, but its an interesting idea.

In terms of 'EVILENKO' it covers dark and distressing material but possibly provides more food for thought than TP did, as much as I love many aspects of the TP saga (series and film)...

I think this thread does make sense overall!

I detect a note of disdain in your comment about you being able to "trust" your girlfriend because she doesn't have a "fawning love" of Lynch. As if somehow the rest of us have been blinded by our inappropriate Lynch-love. With that in mind, I have a question for ya: where do you think most of us got our love of Lynch? Because presumably for us to develop the kind of blind love of which you speak, Lynch would first have had to create something worthy of our love in the first place? Well, guess what? He did, and it was called Twin Peaks.

 True, I had seen Dune and The Elephant Man by the time TP emerged - I'm sure others had seen even more of his previous work, but it was really TP that sent me, and others like me, into headspins of delight - and from there, I sought out everything he had ever created. And if we fawned over him as much as you claim, then surely everyone here would have only good things to say about all of his other works? You only have to click on a few of the non-TP threads on this board to see that this is emphatically not the case.

And I have to disagree with your assesment of MD being very similar to TP. Amongst other things, TP was Lynch's chance to really celebrate his love of 50s American melodrama and the soap opera genre. MD was his chance to show what a horrible place Hollywood can be - it's a film about film, whereas TP is more a TV show about TV (and small-town USA, as you point out). They are motivated by completely different desires. MD and LH have far more in common than TP and MD ever could - any similarities can be put down to Lynch's trademark directorial style - one of the many reasons for our "fawning love". There is far more in common between Blue Velvet and Twin Peaks, if you're looking for similarities. Also, I don't get how you have a problem with some stuff being too literal, then in your next breath make wild and unfounded connections between Lynch's feelings and the Smash-TV shot in FWWM. Kind of assuming quite a lot there, huh? I feel you make some good points, but I also get the impression you came here to "educate" us about why TP was ultimately a failure. In which case, you were doomed to fail before you'd even begun. 

I kind of get the feeling, tp3, that you and/or your girlfriend are a little disappointed by the fact that there are "loose ends" out there with regard to TP.  That many things are left open to a broader interpretation, etc...

No doubt there are loose ends with most all of DL's work.

 If you have read/listened to/watched many interviews with DL you will find that loose ends, leaving some things open to broader interpretation, and plain flat out no explanation whatsoever, are a big part of his work.  One of his most often repeated quotes has to do with the more unknowable the mystery, the more beautiful it is.

I believe one of the reasons he likes to leave things "open"  is to allow the viewer to use his/her own imagination, thusly, involving the viewer in a way most filmmakers don't.  He also works intuitively, which, when you couple that with his philosophical ideas with regard to TM and the like, leaves him with a sense of wonder about his own work, especially during the creative process. As a writer/filmmaker that strives to work intuitively myself, I totally relate to this.  It is...orgasmic, to say the least.

 It's so much neater while the work is in progress, not knowing exactly where it will end up.  Any serious writer will tell you that.  Not to imply that sometimes a storyteller doesn't on occasion, have everything all bundled and tidy for the storytellee from the get-go.  But to work intuitively is a thrill for me and, IMHO, one for DL.

 And so (waxing philosphically here), like life, not everything is explainable in a DL work.  Batteries not included, some assembly required, put on the thinking cap, blah blah blah...

...imagination, and suspension of disbelief, required.

Really good answers to a damn strange thread. I was beginning to think the ever changing title was due to Munchausen's syndrome. Some faceless, nameless girlfriend who isn't a "fawning DL fan" didn't like the last episode of Twin Peaks. Why is that even worthy of discussion?

(Dies of boredom)

I suppose part of me is glad that this thread has created quite a bit of antagonism. If anyone, whoever they are, was disappointed with the last episode then I can't imagine they were in a minority. If Twin Peaks was on nowadays it would have continued because there are so many more channels and means to transmit cult viewing as such. LOST is gaining a lot of favour yet it is a pale show overall in my opinion.

I would add that my girlfriend probably became apathetic towards TP around the time of the James/Nadine twin-mediocre storylines post-Leland-is-the-killer.

I however would like to say I think the team behind the show really tried to get something interesting going after that.

And they did.

As Robert Engels has said, TP: FIRE WALK WITH ME is not a perfect film but it's a good one. I would agree with that assesment very much. For a film dealing with very serious issues as well as more mysterious ones it treads a fine line between imagination and hellish reality.

I think overall I just feel that, as much as I love all of the work Lynch has directed since Twin Peaks, he has never reached the heights of the final scenes of FWWM where Laura and Cooper are in the Red Room looking at the angel.

To say that Mulholland Drive is merely a film about how shit Hollywood is seems a bit limited to me when the final scenes almost pay homage to FWWM's final scenes. I think Lynch was fully aware of how bloody good FWWM was and how he had reached a real height in that work and almost replicated it in the end scenes of MD.

I think it's short-sighted to box off Lynch's films into different areas and say this is this and that is that about them.

Let's face it, it's a bit stupid to do that.

I certainly don't think TP overall was a failure, either, or feel a need to educate anyone reading this. I think the whole of TP was open-ended and that necessitates a continuation. How can anyone deny here that TP season 3 would have been a potential for success? Imagine if it was made now and was a massive critical hit like Mulholland Drive was? MD was not a massive commerical succuess despite its plaudits. If anything comes down to money then I bet Lynch has made far more from Twin Peaks which is massively famous than Mulholland Dr. which if you asked the average person about they wouldn't have a clue. Many people still recall TP and liked it.

But of course commercial considerations should not be a driving force at all, in a creative endeavour. As such, I think TP was the high point around 1992 and the FWWM film of Lynch's powers. Let's hope INLAND EMPIRE is equal, if not superior...

1. If anyone thought a third season would have been successful, it would've been made. Season 2 was not successful.

2. Most good artists have a signature or a style. Lynch does. As you mentioned early on in the thread, tp3, he's said that some of his films exist in the same world as Twin Peaks, but I think that world is his mind. Recurring themes shouldn't be mistaken for anything more than what they are, a director's favorite themes. (Woods, for instance, and women in trouble.) MD isn't just a story about Hollywood, but it isn't about Twin Peaks, either.

In the Rodley book, DL says, "there was more stuff to be done. But the parade had gone by. It was over." He sees FWWM as a goodbye to Laura and the town of Twin Peaks. ABC killed Twin Peaks and FWWM is the final nail in the coffin. Rodley said it would be impossible to have a Twin Peaks once it's heart was exposed in FWWM. The prequel was beautiful, like a funeral should be, and imo a worthy send off to the sadly incomplete and sometimes flawed life of a mostly great show.

I totally agree that when Lynch talks about certain films occupying the same world, he is talking about the landscape of his own mind. I cannot, however agree with the statement that "MD is not about Hollywood". This is patently not true. I'm not saying that this is ALL the movie is about, but that it is one of the key themes woven into the movie, just as soap opera is a key thematical cue for Twin Peaks. I'm baffled that anyone could even question this, since it is blindingly obvious. Not only IS it about Hollywood, it's about Lynch's own experiences of Hollywood. The Stigliani brothers scene is DL's tongue-in-cheek portrayal of what it was like working with DeLaurentiis. Again, I'm not saying that this is the ONLY theme of the film (I don't think a single theme could be attributed to ANY of Lynch's films), but it is nonetheless a theme. It is also quite overtly critical of several aspects of Hollywood moviemaking process, so how can it possibly NOT be about Hollywood???

It's a movie about broken dreams in Hollywood.

 OK, sorry for going off-topic, but I had to address some of the rather off-handed comments made by TP3 and 12Rainbow. I'm happy to discuss the matter further with either of you, over on the MD thread. As far as the open-endedness of the final ep goes - as others have pointed out, have you ever seen a piece of work by David Lynch that ended with full resolution? I for one really like the fact that he has consistently refused to offer his audiences such an easy way out. And ending a series this way was not exactly unheard of. Killing so many characters off is a classic soap opera tactic, and anyone who was a fan of the TV show The Prisoner will be familiar with an ending which basically deals with the idea that if evil exists, it is within us all.

I think it's fairly clear MD does concern itself with the nature and feel of Hollywood and it conveys a bleakness in that world, the underside to the glittery and shallow glamour of it. I know Lynch loves LA and the area in certain ways on the other hand, though.

I'd love to see another Lynch film or project of whatever form that was based around a similar environment to the one in Twin Peaks, that's all. The comment about FWWM by Chris Rodley, saying that any continuation would have been nigh impossible because of the shift in tone with the film, is a valid one definitely.

I've seen a lot of The Prisoner and thought it was brilliant. The final episode is amazing ! The monkey face in it certainly brings something to mind!

I just wanted to say that I LOVED the final episode of Twin Peaks.  The idea of Dale being possessed was an amazing way to conclude the series, and set up for FWWM.  There were supposedly a bunch of fresh new ideas for season 3...and it would have led to a different ending....but, the idea of Coop being possessed by Bob...well, I thought it was a great twist! 

FWWM is also an excellent prologue/epilogue to the series.  I only wish we could get to see the full length movie with all the extra scenes added in the way Lynch had wanted...before the studios advised him to make the movie shorter than 3 hours.  (I heard his original cut was around 4 hours in length!  CAN YOU IMAGINE?!!!!!)

As Lynch directed the last episode, Cooper wasn't possessed. Lynch commented on it as 'part of Cooper was with BOB' so that would suggest that he doesn't either believe in the idea of possession or didn't want to depict it as that.

I've read in an interview with Robert Engels that Harley Peyton had the vague idea of season 3 having five or so episodes where the loose ends from 2 were tied up and then it would jump forward 10 years. This was partly motivated by having older actors still playing high school students (Bobby, Donna, Mike) and it looking fairly ridiculous. I think that would have been a really good idea, showing their lives at a later date in adulthood.

Cooper might have been running a pharmacy in TP, I read. Sounds like a good way that the show could have gone.

I think there was a bit more than 5 hours worth of footage shot for FWWM. But I have no idea how they thought they would have been able to release a film running between three or four hours taking into account that not all of that footage would have been usable. But then these days a three hour film is not so unusual.

I wasn't trying to be nitpicky about the cooper possession.  I know the whole doppleganger thing and how part of him was WITH bob....ect...ect....

 I just said Cooper's possession.  It is easier than explaining it each time.

I didn't know about how they would flash forward 10 years though...wow, that would have been great!

I wonder what the conclusion would have been.  (although I don't want Cooper running a pharmacy...he should be an FBI agent no matter what!) 

Ten years later?  Neat idea.  I picture Coop...

...opening a coffee house/espresso joint that specializes in great pastries...specialty of the house?

"Damned good coffee, and outrageous cherry pie."  Even an outdoor sitting area beneath all those Douglas Firs...