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Twin Peaks & FWWM
> Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper?
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| 1. Friday, September 16, 2011 4:57 PM |
| Laura |
Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
Member Since 7/3/2011 Posts:39
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In Cooper's dream, Cooper is 25 years older, making me believe that he is in the Black Lodge. Why, then, is Laura there with him? I thought she went to the White Lodge... at the end of FWWM, was she in the Black Lodge or the Waiting Room?
Love, Laura
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| 2. Saturday, September 17, 2011 2:16 PM |
| Laura |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
Member Since 7/3/2011 Posts:39
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Anybody? It's my birthday!
Love, Laura
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| 4. Saturday, September 17, 2011 4:51 PM |
| EccentricHappiness |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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Happy Birthday Laura! :) That's a really good question! After I saw FWWM I totally thought the same thing. At the end of FWWM Laura is seen descending into the White Lodge after she sees her angel, but Cooper appears to still be young. And in Coopers' dream in Episode 1 he is an older version of himself and he is in the Black Lodge with Laura. One explanation could be that time is not an issue in the Lodge and Cooper is still the same age as he was when he entered, so when Laura is seen descending into the White Lodge he still appears to be young. Or instead of Cooper seeing Laura in his dream he is actually seeing her Doppelganger instead. But none of the explanations I could think of really fit. I still find myself asking this question and not really being able to find a logical answer. Maybe Lynch didn't really care of Coopers age and appearance in that scene, and just wanted to communicate that Laura was safe and happy in the White Lodge. Hope I helped a little and have a wonderful birthday!
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| 5. Sunday, September 18, 2011 12:18 PM |
| Laura |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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Thanks a lot, you two, my yesterday was great! My life expectancy has lengthened a great deal because of all the laughter. Also, I am officially of the teen-age (13) now, and my life has already been made because I got the TP Gold Box Set, which is so cool. I can't wait to hear the Log Lady's introductions. Anyways, enough about me. EccentricHappiness, I really like all of your ideas, and I was thinking a lot of the same things. I was actually just watching the ending scene of FWWM on Youtube, and came across a few comments with theories that I REALLY, REALLY like. So here they are: "Dale is not Laura's Angel. Though she dreamed of him he always did little to help her. The advice he gave her about the ring was particularly damaging. Fortunately she didn't listen to it. The Angel disappeared when she did not have the ring and it reappears when she took it. Lynch has said that the Red Room changes depending on who enters it. Thus, the Angel comes for Laura? and Laura alone because of who she is: a brave and good person." and, "Only her shadow self remained in? the Black Lodge. The part she chose to hide from others which was her fear of BOB."
Love, Laura
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| 6. Monday, September 19, 2011 3:17 AM |
| LODGE4 |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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As the MFAP says - it's not Laura in that scene - he says to Cooper " Doesn't she look exactly like Laura Palmer? " So it's not really her.
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| 7. Monday, September 19, 2011 4:57 AM |
| REBEL |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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Doppelganger - also my brother claims that I had one, or should ya call shadow people?
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| 8. Monday, September 19, 2011 5:29 AM |
| anne_drexler |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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I have a crazy idea. What if when Laura tells Cooper "See you in 25 years" she means not 25 years "in the future", but 25 years "in the past"? So the events of Cooper's dream happen in fact 25 years after he arrives to Twin Peaks. The same is true for Laura's dream. So the events in chronological order are: 1. Laura dreams of Cooper ("Don't take the ring!") and Annie. She sees the future events: somewhere between series finale events and FWWM ending. 2. Laura is killed 3. Cooper arrives in Twin Peaks. 4.Cooper dreams of LMFAP and Laura. The dream events take place 25 years later after Cooper got in the Lodge and Laura's soul was freed. 5. Cooper follows Window Earle and Annie to the Red Room and events of the series finale take place. 6. Cooper sacrifices his soul and is stuck in the Lodge(Red Room). 7. Laura's soul is freed and leaves the Red Room. 8. 25 years later the events of Cooper's dream actually take place. Hence he doesn't see real Laura but some kind of her projection which "looks exactly like Laura Palmer". 9. Poor Cooper is still in the Red Room :(
Light of new discoveries
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| 9. Monday, September 19, 2011 11:58 AM |
| BOB1 |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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looks good to me. I'm pretty positive that the dream is indeed 25 years later than Twin Peaks action - that;s also why Cooper is older. But as for the original questions, I can't help to think: inconsistency. Perhaps Lynch didn't really care about details there or didn't think it over well enough. Black Lodge, White Lodge, Waiting Room - it seems all rather clear when you think of the series and what is said there. Fire Walk With Me explains a lot of things, but NOT this. Suddenly putting Cooper together with Laura, Annie's appearance and her "Dale-in-the-Lodge" words... all of that rather clouds the picture.
Bobi 1 Kenobi B. Beware O. Of B. BOB
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| 10. Monday, September 19, 2011 1:11 PM |
| anne_drexler |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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| QUOTE: Suddenly putting Cooper together with Laura, Annie's appearance and her "Dale-in-the-Lodge" words... all of that rather clouds the picture.
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Don't you think it's a nice symmetry there? Cooper "sees" future events concerning Laura (also hints of Maddy's death) and in the movie predicts (sorta) Laura's murder. Laura gets a glimpse of Cooper's future and Annie's fate.
Light of new discoveries
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| 11. Monday, September 19, 2011 3:39 PM |
| Laura |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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| QUOTE:As the MFAP says - it's not Laura in that scene - he says to Cooper " Doesn't she look exactly like Laura Palmer? " So it's not really her. |
But she didn't have the eyes of the doppelganger..
Love, Laura
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| 12. Monday, September 19, 2011 10:10 PM |
| EccentricHappiness |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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The conclusion I've come to and the only one that makes sense to me is it didn't really matter how old Cooper looked, or if they were in the White or Black Lodge or the waiting room. It was just of way of portraying that Laura is finally at peace.
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| 13. Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:30 AM |
| Flesh World |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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I truly don't believe that it matters. It's interesting that so many get confused about the Lodge(s), but if you stick to what the "unofficial White/Black Lodge theory" says, this place is in the nature of the metaphysical. Results of time (hours, minutes, years, age etc.) are not relevant then, and therefor nobody should be aging in the Lodge. If that was the case, Laura Palmer should have looked 25 years older herself? Or am I mistaking? We have to remember that the first scene from the red room in season 1, was a riddle, even for Lynch and Frost. Why Cooper was older in that scene? I don't think it states anything about what's going on in the Lodge, perhaps it's metaphorical - like, getting older, getting wiser kinda thing - I don't think it's physical, it can't be if The Lodge(s) are metaphysical.
To develop this a bit further, I think somehow if your soul has ever been in the Black Lodge, your soul has always been in the Black Lodge. Therefor, when people say "Laura Palmer goes to the White Lodge at the end of FWWM" it's a little bit too simple. Moving from one place to another, and be at one place at the time is a rule of the physical concept. My theory is, if it's her fate to go to the Black Lodge and then the White Lodge, she's everywhere at once in the rules of metaphysics, not physics. Twin Peaks is quite comparable with Kubrick's The Shining. If you remember that scene when Jack meets Grady in the bathroom and he says "You are the caretaker here, you've always been the caretaker here. I should know, because I've always been here." This makes Cooper's dream more sensible - he's actually communicating with his soul beyond the rules of the physical life. It's no coincidence, dreams are the only aspect metaphysics in the physical world that you can experience on a regular basis. But I also believe that experiencing the Lodge(s) are subjective to whom that is experiencing it. When Cooper enters the red room, all the characters within it might only be products of his subconscious (including the döppelganger) and not necessarily the souls of others. Maybe I went a little bit off track. But the point is, Cooper's age is probably nothing of relevance in The Black Lodge, once we actually start to understand it a bit. I don't know what "25 years" even means in a place without time, but it's probably not about 25 actual years.
HOLY SMOKES, MY SOCKS ARE ON FIRE!!!
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| 14. Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:36 PM |
| Seatotem |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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Ok guys, I've enjoyed this thread! The Lodge Laura and her quote and gestures have fascinated me since it's initial airing. One other thing that always made me wonder was Annie. Annie in black Miss Twin Peaks dress as she arrived at the lodge with Windom Earle then in Carolines dress turns into Caroline. Annie and Cooper bleeding on the floor? What are your thoughts ? Also, unrealeased footage in FWWM of Annie surviving the lodge. This is rumor from what I've heard. I'd love to hear your thoughts...............Thanks!
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| 15. Thursday, September 22, 2011 6:42 PM |
| BOB1 |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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(delete, please, double post)
Bobi 1 Kenobi B. Beware O. Of B. BOB
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| 16. Thursday, September 22, 2011 6:42 PM |
| BOB1 |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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FleshWorld, you've got a lot of good points and I agree about the physics and metaphysics and other things. One thing troubles me, though:
| QUOTE: nobody should be aging in the Lodge. If that was the case, Laura Palmer should have looked 25 years older herself? Or am I mistaking? (...) Why Cooper was older in that scene? I don't think it states anything about what's going on in the Lodge...
| Yes, nobody is aging IN the Lodge, which is also why Laura wouldn't age. However, with Cooper it is different because he could have aged OUTSIDE the Lodge. His body was, after all, alive in our world, where physics does apply, therefore it is natural he should age. I have always thought he lived on those next 20 or 25 years and that is when he would die and meet Laura in the Lodge or Waiting Room or whatever.
Bobi 1 Kenobi B. Beware O. Of B. BOB
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| 17. Friday, September 23, 2011 10:46 PM |
| Seatotem |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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| QUOTE: FleshWorld, you've got a lot of good points and I agree about the physics and metaphysics and other things. One thing troubles me, though:
| QUOTE: nobody should be aging in the Lodge. If that was the case, Laura Palmer should have looked 25 years older herself? Or am I mistaking? (...) Why Cooper was older in that scene? I don't think it states anything about what's going on in the Lodge...
| Yes, nobody is aging IN the Lodge, which is also why Laura wouldn't age. However, with Cooper it is different because he could have aged OUTSIDE the Lodge. His body was, after all, alive in our world, where physics does apply, therefore it is natural he should age. I have always thought he lived on those next 20 or 25 years and that is when he would die and meet Laura in the Lodge or Waiting Room or whatever. | but you can't have it both ways. How long has Laura been in the Lodge? a year? Cooper just walkd in! how can he age 25 years? If Cooper ages then Laura ages. and add Maddy to this list.
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| 18. Friday, September 23, 2011 10:48 PM |
| Seatotem |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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as well as Caroline who's been there for at least a few years and now Annie.
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| 19. Saturday, September 24, 2011 2:30 PM |
| anne_drexler |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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Cooper only looks old in the dream which presumably happens 25 years later. Probably he sees not "real" Laura Palmer, but sort of her Lodge representation which "looks exactly like Laura Palmer"
Light of new discoveries
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| 20. Saturday, September 24, 2011 3:17 PM |
| Seatotem |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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hmmm, maybe David Lynch's 3rd Sheryl Lee character she spoke of at the fest this year. Check out the fest videos on Youtube. Great stuff this year, and lots of video.
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| 21. Sunday, September 25, 2011 4:23 PM |
| Laura |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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QUOTE:Cooper only looks old in the dream which presumably happens 25 years later. Probably he sees not "real" Laura Palmer, but sort of her Lodge representation which "looks exactly like Laura Palmer"
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I definitely also think that the Lodge Laura that's not the Doppelganger Laura, isn't really Laura. She's already in the White Lodge, isn't she?
Love, Laura
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| 22. Monday, September 26, 2011 6:51 AM |
| anne_drexler |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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QUOTE:QUOTE:Cooper only looks old in the dream which presumably happens 25 years later. Probably he sees not "real" Laura Palmer, but sort of her Lodge representation which "looks exactly like Laura Palmer"
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I definitely also think that the Lodge Laura that's not the Doppelganger Laura, isn't really Laura. She's already in the White Lodge, isn't she? |
Hm, you know, another possibility is that the "Cooper's dream" Laura is real Laura. The Giant seems to be a spirit/creature from the White Lodge, however he is able to "visit" the Red Room (which is supposedly a "middle place" between Lodges). Perhaps, Laura is also able to visit Red Room after her ascending to the White Lodge.
We'll never know for sure, of course.
Light of new discoveries
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| 23. Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:59 PM |
| Laura |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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QUOTE:QUOTE:QUOTE:Cooper only looks old in the dream which presumably happens 25 years later. Probably he sees not "real" Laura Palmer, but sort of her Lodge representation which "looks exactly like Laura Palmer"
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I definitely also think that the Lodge Laura that's not the Doppelganger Laura, isn't really Laura. She's already in the White Lodge, isn't she? |
Hm, you know, another possibility is that the "Cooper's dream" Laura is real Laura. The Giant seems to be a spirit/creature from the White Lodge, however he is able to "visit" the Red Room (which is supposedly a "middle place" between Lodges). Perhaps, Laura is also able to visit Red Room after her ascending to the White Lodge.
We'll never know for sure, of course.
| I really, really love this idea! Just like the Giant gives Cooper clues, Laura would too. Also, when she says, "See you in 25 years..." in his dream he's 25 yrs older, and Laura's there with him so... awesome idea!!!!!
Love, Laura
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| 24. Wednesday, October 5, 2011 12:24 PM |
| Gadfly |
RE: Laura in the Black Lodge with Cooper? |
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Hi! We know that Coop was 25 years older in the original dream. Of course we'll never know, and he's the main character, so while having him as a bad guy for a season or so would be OK, but they had to eventually liberate him for the series to go on.
If we imagine a Season 3+, then I think "I'll see you again in 25 years" means that Cooper will die in 25 years, at which time he will have his true judgement in the Red Room, and experience the events from his and Laura's shared dream.
However, "I'll see you again in 25 years" could also refer to Cooper's possession lasting that long in the physical world. In either case, I think that "I'll see you again in 25 years" refers to how long it will be before Cooper ascends to the White Lodge.
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