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1. Tuesday, September 21, 2010 7:43 PM
davindragul Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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Long time lurker here, recently re-watched the last ep and the movie, and had a few questions I don't think I've seen here:

 

1) What's the significance of Jimmy Scott and his song right after Cooper enters to Lodge? Is it just a 'welcoming song' of sorts?

 

2) Why does the MFAP get a doppelganger, while no other Lodge inhabitants seem to? Does this imply he was once human? That the real MFAP is actually good?

 

3) Leland saying 'I did not kill her', is this just a trick, or is this further pushing what FWWM seems to say, that Leland had a reasonable idea what he was doing?

 

Thanks.

 
2. Tuesday, September 21, 2010 9:47 PM
JFK RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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QUOTE:

Long time lurker here, recently re-watched the last ep and the movie, and had a few questions I don't think I've seen here:

 

1) What's the significance of Jimmy Scott and his song right after Cooper enters to Lodge? Is it just a 'welcoming song' of sorts?

 

2) Why does the MFAP get a doppelganger, while no other Lodge inhabitants seem to? Does this imply he was once human? That the real MFAP is actually good?

 

3) Leland saying 'I did not kill her', is this just a trick, or is this further pushing what FWWM seems to say, that Leland had a reasonable idea what he was doing?

 

Thanks.


 1. i dont think there's any signifigance to jimmy scott singing "sycamore trees" other than it being an amazing scene(one of my favorites) and the introduction to the black lodge.
2. i always thought of MFAP as the host. notice when cooper first backtracks after leaving the waiting room. MFAP is right where he was last seen, and gives coop directions. but with the doppleganger, im torn between what i just said, that he acts as a host or guide, or somehow, possibly something to do with mike and MFAP saying "i am the arm", could have something to do with him having a doppelganger. i dont think theres enough info to make any real indiction of the reason. also, it was a simple way of sort of telling viewers what was going on with the eyes of the laura, maddy, caroline, and then cooper.
3. it could be taken three ways. leland was not in control of his mind or body while killing, or since that is leland's doppelganger, maybe he, the doppelganger, didnt kill anybody. or most likey what you said, a sick double entendre, which is backed up by his laughter and the slightly aggressive moves towards cooper.

 
3. Tuesday, September 21, 2010 9:58 PM
davindragul RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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QUOTE:

 1. i dont think there's any signifigance to jimmy scott singing "sycamore trees" other than it being an amazing scene(one of my favorites) and the introduction to the black lodge.
2. i always thought of MFAP as the host. notice when cooper first backtracks after leaving the waiting room. MFAP is right where he was last seen, and gives coop directions. but with the doppleganger, im torn between what i just said, that he acts as a host or guide, or somehow, possibly something to do with mike and MFAP saying "i am the arm", could have something to do with him having a doppelganger. i dont think theres enough info to make any real indiction of the reason. also, it was a simple way of sort of telling viewers what was going on with the eyes of the laura, maddy, caroline, and then cooper.
3. it could be taken three ways. leland was not in control of his mind or body while killing, or since that is leland's doppelganger, maybe he, the doppelganger, didnt kill anybody. or most likey what you said, a sick double entendre, which is backed up by his laughter and the slightly aggressive moves towards cooper.


1) I thought as such, it's actually the creepiest scene for me for some reaosn in all of TP.

 

2) I always found it funny that no one mentions the fact that the MFAP has those white eyes as a mystery, consider he's on the cover of Season 2 Part 2's DVD (in Australia at least). How exactly does it relate to the 'arm' line?

 

3) I guess all of those could be right, but the last explanation the most right, as you said.

 

I just thought of another question. Why are Laura, Maddy and Leland in the Lodge, or at least Waiting Room? I mean, was it established that when you are killed by Bob or another spirit, that is where you go? Why no Josie, or anyone else?

 
4. Tuesday, September 21, 2010 10:45 PM
JFK RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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QUOTE:
QUOTE:

 1. i dont think there's any signifigance to jimmy scott singing "sycamore trees" other than it being an amazing scene(one of my favorites) and the introduction to the black lodge.
2. i always thought of MFAP as the host. notice when cooper first backtracks after leaving the waiting room. MFAP is right where he was last seen, and gives coop directions. but with the doppleganger, im torn between what i just said, that he acts as a host or guide, or somehow, possibly something to do with mike and MFAP saying "i am the arm", could have something to do with him having a doppelganger. i dont think theres enough info to make any real indiction of the reason. also, it was a simple way of sort of telling viewers what was going on with the eyes of the laura, maddy, caroline, and then cooper.
3. it could be taken three ways. leland was not in control of his mind or body while killing, or since that is leland's doppelganger, maybe he, the doppelganger, didnt kill anybody. or most likey what you said, a sick double entendre, which is backed up by his laughter and the slightly aggressive moves towards cooper.


1) I thought as such, it's actually the creepiest scene for me for some reaosn in all of TP.

 

2) I always found it funny that no one mentions the fact that the MFAP has those white eyes as a mystery, consider he's on the cover of Season 2 Part 2's DVD (in Australia at least). How exactly does it relate to the 'arm' line?

 

3) I guess all of those could be right, but the last explanation the most right, as you said.

 

I just thought of another question. Why are Laura, Maddy and Leland in the Lodge, or at least Waiting Room? I mean, was it established that when you are killed by Bob or another spirit, that is where you go? Why no Josie, or anyone else?

1. creepy? man, i smile wide and get goosebumps everytime MFAP comes out from behind the curtian backwards. you have to remember, when viewing this when it first aired, it was like a year and a half until they got back to the MFAP, never letting us know what context of the show he occupies. there's the dream in ep.2(i know he's recalled in memory at some point later as a clue in relation to leland's compulsive dancing, but thats just a remembering of cooper's dream). and then dancing on josie's bed in cooper's vision in ep 22 or 23 or 24, i cant remember right now, appearing just as BOB disappears, then dancing to his own song. so, for me, there's kind of a magic to that "sycamore trees " scene, as in finally, MFAP gets some real screen time.

2. i was just fishing for any possible reason that MFAP could have a doppelganger. i dont actually think that. i think its more to do with him guiding cooper through the black lodge.

3. first, laura, maddy and leland are definitely in the Lodge, or at least their doppelgangers are. the waiting room is a distinct room at the beginning of the red rooms. and  i thought josie was trapped in the wood at the great northern. and died of fear(coop says this in next to last episode). not sure BOB killed her, rather, it think he was just attracted to the pain and sorrow. as for the others, teresa banks was only alluded to, and not by name, in the pilot, so i doubt she was thought about much for ep.29. the easiest way i can explain it is that i think when the owl ring is worn, that person's garmonbozia(pain and sorrow) goes to mike and/or MFAP and BOB collects it. in FWWM,  MIKE says that BOB stole teresa's corn(she wore the owl ring in that picture on her fridge), thats why he throws the ring in the train car, so he and MFAP can have laura's garmonbozia as payback for BOB breaking the rules. BOB seems a subordinate of MIKE/MFAP, but one who acts against them at times.
 

 
5. Tuesday, September 21, 2010 11:13 PM
davindragul RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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3) But why is it only them in the Lodge? Discounting Teresa and the like, why do we only see them? Is it because they are the only ones that have anything to do with Cooper? Does this mean that if you are killed by BOB, you go to the Lodge?

And was there any Garmonbozia that came from Maddy, or is a long time of torment needed to produce it, such as Laura's death or Teresas?

 
6. Thursday, September 23, 2010 4:57 PM
JFK RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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QUOTE:

3) But why is it only them in the Lodge? Discounting Teresa and the like, why do we only see them? Is it because they are the only ones that have anything to do with Cooper? Does this mean that if you are killed by BOB, you go to the Lodge?

And was there any Garmonbozia that came from Maddy, or is a long time of torment needed to produce it, such as Laura's death or Teresas?

id say yes, if you are involved with the lodge spirits and they kill you for the garmonbozia, then your doppelganger is stuck in the black lodge(i still maintain cooper and laura made it to the white lodge at the end of FWWM).

by what the show implies, i would think her garmonbozia went to BOB. there was never anything going on with maddy and the ring.
 

 
7. Thursday, November 4, 2010 11:49 PM
Alden RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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8. Tuesday, November 9, 2010 1:01 AM
lovegestapo RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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i heard that "sycamore trees" was apparently a short screen play david lynch was working on in the late 80's but then later decided to use the dialogue as lyrics for the song. i don't know accurate that information is.

 
9. Tuesday, November 9, 2010 1:46 AM
lovegestapo RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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as for the doppelgangers. any inhabitant in the black lodge with glassy-colored eyes is a doppelganger. leland palmer saying "i did not kill anybody" is confusing. i don't think he was aware of what he was doing when he was possessed by BOB which is what makes that part kind of sad to me. he's just seems to be trapped in the black lodge as if BOB just took leland there with him. but then there's the episode where leland dies and as he's dying he says he see's laura welcoming him into the after life and forgiving him for what he did. which leads me to believe that the white lodge is sort of like heaven and the black lodge is like hell where all the evil doppelgangers are. but then why is laura always in the red room??? even at the end of fire walk with me. is the red room connected to the white lodge??? it will forever be a mystery since twin peaks was so short lived..

 
10. Tuesday, November 9, 2010 11:11 AM
JFK RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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QUOTE:as for the doppelgangers. any inhabitant in the black lodge with glassy-colored eyes is a doppelganger. leland palmer saying "i did not kill anybody" is confusing. i don't think he was aware of what he was doing when he was possessed by BOB which is what makes that part kind of sad to me. he's just seems to be trapped in the black lodge as if BOB just took leland there with him. but then there's the episode where leland dies and as he's dying he says he see's laura welcoming him into the after life and forgiving him for what he did. which leads me to believe that the white lodge is sort of like heaven and the black lodge is like hell where all the evil doppelgangers are. but then why is laura always in the red room??? even at the end of fire walk with me. is the red room connected to the white lodge??? it will forever be a mystery since twin peaks was so short lived..

 my standing theory is that the end of FWWM takes place in the white lodge, and cooper and laura have finally passed through the black lodge to the white. to answer all your couple of questions, the waiting room, the black lodge, and the white lodge all look the same i.e. red room. the ambiguity can throw people, but i try and not think of them as actually physical places(which heaven and hell kinda imply), but as abstractions. but, at the end of FWWM, laura's angel returns, cooper's standing over her reassuringly, and she's crying for joy(also her hair(sorry, wig) and dress are completely different. thats what makes me think its the white lodge, and as fucked up as it is, FWWM actually has a happy ending.

 
11. Tuesday, November 9, 2010 3:32 PM
lovegestapo RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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agreed. the ending of fwwm is beautiful. it immediately reminded me of the ending of blue velvet. how everything goes from really fucked up to happy and dream like, both coincidentally ending with angelo badalamenti's music. good stuff.

 
12. Tuesday, November 9, 2010 3:45 PM
The Spirit Owl RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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My personal theory is that the doppelgangers met by Cooper in the Black Lodge are not actually the shadow selves of Laura, Maddie or Caroline, but spirits from the lodge who counterfeited their appearance in order to disorient and scare Cooper.

 
13. Tuesday, November 9, 2010 4:49 PM
lovegestapo RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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i think windom earl had some control in the black lodge in the parts involving caroline and annie to fuck with cooper's head. until BOB put his ass in check..

 
14. Tuesday, November 9, 2010 5:44 PM
DistantJ RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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To be honest, I never saw the Jimmy Scott performance as anything more than an awesome introduction to the black lodge. It's so haunting and with the strobe lights and Coop and the little dancing man staring at each other with Coop's realisation that all of his dreams and visions were all as real as you or me... Just amazing!

 
15. Wednesday, November 10, 2010 1:04 PM
sethisdelirious RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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QUOTE:

Long time lurker here, recently re-watched the last ep and the movie, and had a few questions I don't think I've seen here:

 

1) What's the significance of Jimmy Scott and his song right after Cooper enters to Lodge? Is it just a 'welcoming song' of sorts?

 

2) Why does the MFAP get a doppelganger, while no other Lodge inhabitants seem to? Does this imply he was once human? That the real MFAP is actually good?

 

3) Leland saying 'I did not kill her', is this just a trick, or is this further pushing what FWWM seems to say, that Leland had a reasonable idea what he was doing?

 

Thanks.

I recently was lucky enough to see a screening of the final episode of the series coupled with FWWM in a movie theater and i feel that i had a bit of a revelation in regards to the Jimmy Scott scene (which has always been one of my favorites). I believe that D. Lynch knew that after Dale enters the lodge, he would be trapped forever in a cycle (as the viewers see it). The order of TP viewing being non-linear: 1.) Pilot/series 2.) FWWM which brings the viewer back to the beginning. So once Dale passes through the red curtain, his fate is sealed forever (i believe that D.Lynch knew it was extremely unlikely that there was going to be a 3rd season).

As I watched this sequence playing out (for the umpteenth time) it seemed clear to me that this was D. Lynch's final ode to Dale Cooper. As the haunting lyrics: "I'll see you in the branches that blow in the breeze. I'll see you in the trees. I'll see you in the trees. Under the sycamore trees."

I don't think it was a welcoming song, but more of a farewell to a character that was close to his (and the viewer's) heart.

 
16. Saturday, December 11, 2010 8:56 AM
davindragul RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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I'd still confused about why there is a MFAP doppelganger, it doesn't really make sense in the context of the rest of the series/movie.

 
17. Monday, December 13, 2010 8:09 AM
jlyon1515 RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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I think the LMFAP having a doppelganger makes sense. The normal LMFAP is not an inherently evil character. I remember reading online after the whole series was over that some people were calling him evil. I talked with my mom who I watched teh entire series with (on it's initial run) and she too thought it was weird that people were calling him evil. I think people call him evil because he's just confusing and people have a need to lump him in a category to understand him. To me he's just a character that exists and he's not really good or evil (though he does help cooper telling him about the gum). Yes, he is around after Bob kills Josie, but to me, his appearance there is more the fact that some sort of cosmic order is being restored. Like in FWWM, he says to Bob that he wants back his pain and sorrow, because Bob took it. That doesn't mean that he's only pain and sorrow, just that he's trying to keep the balance, and Bob made things off Balance.

Yes, the one-armed man says he cut off his arm, and later the LMFAP says he's the arm, but that doesn't mean he's evil, just that when Mike and the LMFAP were one, they were evil. We just never see the LMFAP doing anything evil.

This is all just my opinion obviously. And anyway, that's how he can have a doppelganger.

As for the Sycamore Trees seen, I totally don't see it as creepy! I too get a big smile. Again, it's just Lynch doing his thing, and again, he doesn't let the viewer know if it's meant to be good or evil, so some people feel they have to pick a side of how to feel about it. You see this same effect when watching Lynch films, sometimes people laugh a lot in his movies, and others sit there thinking "why is the douchebag next to me laughing all the time?" :)

 
18. Monday, December 20, 2010 7:46 AM
davindragul RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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I too don't think MFAP is evil, or overly good for that matter. He is, as you said, a complex character. But, why don't the Giant or Bob have doppelgangers? They are good and evil respectively (well, the Giant is *most likely* good). Could this demote MFAP to being under those two in terms of power? Could he be, as we saw in the FWW convenience store scene, just a mere master of ceremony, there to ensure everything goes smoothly, no one cheats for Garmonbozia, a policer of sorts there to ensure everything is fair?

This could explain Mike's behaviour in the real world, as he is watching Bob/the Giant. Maybe Mike decided to cast the 'evil' side of himself (MFAP) off in order to be able to be in both the Lodges and the real world at the same time. MFAP is 'evil', or more tough, strict, whatever, and is the side of Mike that is able to reign in the other two better, hence he is needed more in their 'home', the Lodges. As I'm writing this, I'm scared at how much this is explaining. I'll have to compile some things, and if anything contradicts this, tell me please.

 
19. Friday, January 21, 2011 10:00 AM
LODGE4 RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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1) The minstrel welcomes you

2) There is only one MFAP - He was just playing with Coop's mind when he said " the next time you see me it won't be me"

3)Leland is right - he didn't kill anybody - BOB did.

 
20. Friday, January 21, 2011 2:28 PM
forgiveness RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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1. I think that the song "Sycamore Trees" foreshadows Cooper's fate. If you look at the lyrics it corresponds with what we know about the Lodges and BOB's hosts. It is interesting to note that an instrumental version of the same song plays at the end of FWWM when BOB/Leland enters the Lodge. Remember also that Laura tells Cooper that she will see him again in 25 years but "Meanwhile" and she makes the sign language for a tree.

 

2. There's a possibility that BOB also appears as a doppelganger. I've seen photos of BOB with the glassy eyes and the image we see of BOB smiling at us, as the one Coop catches the other, looks like BOB's eyes are glassy there. My theory is that everyone who is dead or has been touched by death has a doppelganger.

 

3. Leland's doppelganger says "I did not kill anybody" not "I did not kill her". I think that it is important that we only see Leland's doppelganger after BOB has saved Dale. It is hinting that Cooper will be BOB's next host just as Leland was. I don't believe FWWM was saying that Leland knew what he was doing. I think it did a good job of showing that he was just a vehicle BOB used, a worn out and confused one at that. I think a part of Leland was aware subconsciously, manifested in part as the Pierre Tremond, but in the real world he didn't have a clue. The words of Leland's doppelganger are meant to imply to Dale that he will be similar. It could be a joke that while Coop thought he was so good and pure he fell into the same predicament that Leland Palmer did.

 

4. I think that we only see Laura, Maddy, Leland, MFAP and Caroline’s doppelgangers because they are related to either BOB and Cooper who’s fates become entwined. Part of me just accepts that we wouldn’t see Josie there because she’s trapped at the Great Northern as punishment and that Teresa just wasn’t planned out fully enough to justify seeing her there.

 

I don’t think that Dale went to the White Lodge with Laura since it is only her face we see in the white light at the end of FWWM. Laura also says she won’t see Dale for another 25 years so that kind of concretes it for me.

 

I do believe that Mike and the Arm are the same. In the script to FWWM, MFAP is referred to as Mike sometimes. I also believe that he is good. To me, and this isn’t widely accepted, the garmonbozia he refers to is his own pain and sorrow not anyone else’s. He does not say “her”, “yours” or even “our” but rather “my”. It never states that BOB feeds on pain and sorrow but does state that he feeds on fear and pleasure. When he feasted on Josie it was stated that her fear attracted him. I think the stolen garmonbozia was the pain and sorrow Mike felt over Laura’s death. The corn was only stolen after Cooper had told Laura not to take the ring.


David Lynch: There are many things I think that are out there that we don't know about but sometimes, you know, you get certain feelings.

 
21. Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:10 AM
Juanita Dark RE: Jimmy Scott, MFAP Doppelganger and Leland...


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1. The sycamore trees song relates the narrative in it's lyrics.

"And I'll see you
And you'll see me
And I'll see you
in the branches that blow
In the breeze
I'll see you in the trees
Under the sycamore tree"

I thought it tied in nicely with the lines of the little fwwm poem:

"Thru the darkness of Future Past
the magician longs to see
one chants out between two worlds
Fire - walk with me."

As long as you enter in the right spirit, you will be able to discern the truth. Only Cooper didn't enter in the right spirit and as a result he got trapped there and his doppelganger walked out.

It also seems to me that there really isn't any linear timespace in the Red Room, which is why Annie appears to Laura before Cooper has even come to Twin Peaks. This actually means that Not!Cooper could have been discovered by clues planted before any of that happened.

 

 

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