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| 1. Friday, September 17, 2010 3:56 PM |
| Blackout0189 |
Was Leland really possessed? |
Member Since 7/6/2010 Posts:12
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I heard in a bunch of Twin Peaks articles that people that BOB was simply a metaphor for parental abuse and evil, and that he wasn't literal. Do you guys think he is real or just a symbol/defense mechanism for Laura? Did she create BOB in her head because she couldn't handle the thought that it was her father doing all of this to her?
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| 2. Friday, September 17, 2010 8:55 PM |
| JFK |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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QUOTE:I heard in a bunch of Twin Peaks articles that people that BOB was simply a metaphor for parental abuse and evil, and that he wasn't literal. Do you guys think he is real or just a symbol/defense mechanism for Laura? Did she create BOB in her head because she couldn't handle the thought that it was her father doing all of this to her?
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i dont know, to me this is a sticky subject. first, that would also call into question much more than BOB. the whole existence of the lodges, which are also accessed by other characters(cooper, annie, earle, laura in FWWM) would have to be looked at that way. second, by "real", you mean as real as any other character in the show that seems to exist by what we the audience define as normal expirience. but not "real", like the reality of the audience. i think that when you make that distintion the way you did, youre(im speaking generally now, not at you specifically blackout) misconceiving how the show works as a whole. since the the show is fictional, a paranormal fiction in fact, all of it can be used metaphorically and not just as a depiction of reality, but, to quote herzog, metaphors for which we may have no idea. the paranormal aspect, of which BOB is an example, is really what makes this interpetation explicit(lynch has said BOB is "an abstraction in physical form"). he is ambigously "real", as a fictional character and as a metaphor. i think because of that ambiguity, he is both. and by implication, the whole show is both. they exist in the same reality of the show, but defining the relationships of the seemingly real reality and the abstract reality depicted but with meaning obscured are in the end left up to the viewer. to me, thats part of what makes the show so wonderful. and, tho not a pure lynch creation, a perfect example of lynch's aesthetic of the dark world that exists within our everday existence, but is not readily or openly acknowledged, such as the incest between leland and laura which became the heart of the show once revealed as it went hand in hand with the search for BOB plotline. and probably the most affecting part of this, that laura only saw BOB until the night before her death, that the truth was horribly personified by BOB to hide leland's, her father's, participation, is a disturbing but accurate comment on how western culture deals with these things that people do that it is not prepared to deal with.
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| 3. Sunday, September 19, 2010 1:36 PM |
| dawn |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
Member Since 9/6/2010 Posts:8
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it is possible, but on the other hand, if BOB was all in Laura's mind, then it wouldn't make sense for Sarah and Maddie (and Cooper/MIKE) to see BOB with their own eyes.
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| 4. Sunday, September 19, 2010 11:35 PM |
| exper |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
Member Since 11/2/2008 Posts:10
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QUOTE:QUOTE:I heard in a bunch of Twin Peaks articles that people that BOB was simply a metaphor for parental abuse and evil, and that he wasn't literal. Do you guys think he is real or just a symbol/defense mechanism for Laura? Did she create BOB in her head because she couldn't handle the thought that it was her father doing all of this to her?
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i dont know, to me this is a sticky subject. first, that would also call into question much more than BOB. the whole existence of the lodges, which are also accessed by other characters(cooper, annie, earle, laura in FWWM) would have to be looked at that way. second, by "real", you mean as real as any other character in the show that seems to exist by what we the audience define as normal expirience. but not "real", like the reality of the audience. i think that when you make that distintion the way you did, youre(im speaking generally now, not at you specifically blackout) misconceiving how the show works as a whole. since the the show is fictional, a paranormal fiction in fact, all of it can be used metaphorically and not just as a depiction of reality, but, to quote herzog, metaphors for which we may have no idea. the paranormal aspect, of which BOB is an example, is really what makes this interpetation explicit(lynch has said BOB is "an abstraction in physical form"). he is ambigously "real", as a fictional character and as a metaphor. i think because of that ambiguity, he is both. and by implication, the whole show is both. they exist in the same reality of the show, but defining the relationships of the seemingly real reality and the abstract reality depicted but with meaning obscured are in the end left up to the viewer. to me, thats part of what makes the show so wonderful. and, tho not a pure lynch creation, a perfect example of lynch's aesthetic of the dark world that exists within our everday existence, but is not readily or openly acknowledged, such as the incest between leland and laura which became the heart of the show once revealed as it went hand in hand with the search for BOB plotline. and probably the most affecting part of this, that laura only saw BOB until the night before her death, that the truth was horribly personified by BOB to hide leland's, her father's, participation, is a disturbing but accurate comment on how western culture deals with these things that people do that it is not prepared to deal with.
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This is what I have always felt. That BOB is evil made tangible. My clue to this has always been the sign on the veterinarian's office (which was above the convenience store) that said "Aid to the Beast Incarnate" As to why others in the town can see him, well, I think you are right, Maybe Mrs. Palmer saw what was going on in her family, but chose the hide it. I think that the fan was maybe a sign, perhaps Leland turned it on when he was abusing Laura, and Mrs. Palmer knew not to go upstairs if it was on... 1in·car·nate 1 a : invested with bodily and especially human nature and formb : made manifest or comprehensible : embodied <a fiendincarnate>
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| 5. Tuesday, September 21, 2010 6:04 PM |
| JFK |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
Member Since 5/5/2007 Posts:562
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| QUOTE: As to why others in the town can see him, well, I think you are right, Maybe Mrs. Palmer saw what was going on in her family, but chose the hide it. I think that the fan was maybe a sign, perhaps Leland turned it on when he was abusing Laura, and Mrs. Palmer knew not to go upstairs if it was on... |
the relationship between electricity and the lodge spirits is mentioned multiple times in FWWM. actually, from what we are shown on the show and film, he drugged mrs. palmer whenever he became BOB to be with laura. its possible that the electricity connection came about because of the use of the fan in the pilot, hanging above the discovery that laura isnt there and didnt come home the night before. and also, very importantly to the arc of the show, though not revealed until the next episode when mr. palmer is with donna and completely brakes down, the intensity of her emotion somehow makes her remember seeing BOB at the foot of laura's bed when she was looking for laura the morning before(altho in future episodes, it seems that BOB is tied to leland full time, so thats another ambiguity that is never resolved in the show). this was also the first sighting of BOB by we, the audience. followed shortly by coopers dream. which opens another problem with the statement that BOB is just a metaphor, not a character like the others is that other characters see or are affected by him. whats wrong with a character who is a embodiment of, to quote albert, "the evil that men do" and nothing more? he's still a character on the show who we watch like the rest and not a literary device. which would just be weird.
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| 6. Wednesday, September 22, 2010 6:47 AM |
| bluefrank |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
Member Since 9/8/2009 Posts:147
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By design...it appears that the 'possession' angle has been left in part, deliberately ambiguous...even down to Leland's first encounter with BOB, when he was just a small boy. Prior to his death Leland recounts: Leland: Oh God! Laura! I killed her! Oh my God, I killed my daughter! I didn't know... forgive me... Oh God! I was just a boy... I saw him in my dream... he said he wanted to play... he opened me, and I invited him and he came inside me! When he was in me, I didn't know... and when he was gone, I couldn't remember! Made me do things --terrible things... he said he wanted lives... he wanted others,others that they could use... like they used me!! Don't think I need to point out the 'obvious' double-meaning here in the above text...but I highlighted it anyway. Anyway however you read it real/unreal/metaphor etc...I still like to reason and at least try and quantify in real terms. Its just such a multi-faceted thing!!!!
For example: Leland's mental state under BOB's influence seems especially important too, in respect of some kind of understanding...it is stated that 'a large hole' is present in Leland's 'conscience'...in respect of his knowledge of his deeds, only for the memories/recollections to come flooding back when BOB has left the building. (as seen in eps #16) We also see here that Cooper is provided information from Leland/BOB about 'Pittsburgh' which seems to solidify the concept of real 'possession' further...knowledge outside of typical scope etc. I could go on...but we'd be here all week!
I think personally I'm with Laura....BOB is real, however I can entirely understand where folk get the idea that he could be a 'mental construct' used as a coping mechanism...however, IF only read that way, it does do a disservice to some of the other 'macro' themes that are being brought into the picture and I would say that they are just as important and do add a massive further dimension to the whole.
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| 7. Friday, September 24, 2010 4:57 PM |
| bluefrank |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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"Aid to the Beast Incarnate" For me...I took this more as a mirroring/twinning of the Mike & BOB relationship, perhaps a kind of 'in-joke'...but this time based in reality. Robert 'Bob' Lydecker (the vet, associates with animals/familiars) being the best friend of Phillip 'Mike' Gerard. If we take Bob Lydecker as BOB in this equation then naturally he could be seen as perhaps an 'Aid' to the beast that is incarnate...the beast perhaps being Mike. Remember that BOB was Mike's familiar and ultimately was to serve him...no doubt as part of the quest for 'Garmonbozia' harvesting. In short...BOB is the 'aid' to the beast incarnate that is Mike. But hey...thats just my own reading of it. I like the fact that 'Lydecker' and 'Waldo' have a connection to the movie 'Laura' (Waldo Lydecker)...where they start the movie with a girl named Laura...found dead...now that was a really nice touch!!!
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| 8. Thursday, September 23, 2010 2:55 AM |
| exper |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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I quess for me, I prefer to think of it as I stated. But that's the great thing about interpretation. I view it in context with David's other films: Did Betty (naomi watts) really see the old couple from the airport emerge from a small blue box and turn into monsters that attack her or is this really her innocence turned into her terrible reality. In Lost Highway, did Bill Pullman really physically transform into Balthasar Getty, or is this the way he dealt with the reality of what he did? To me, David seems to definitely make emotions and fears manifest.
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| 9. Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:07 AM |
| darksideOfTPeak |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
Member Since 1/22/2010 Posts:22
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I believe you have to make it what you want. I first believed when I watch the series the first few times that Bob was real, and after that I started to see something different. Bob is parallel to the Robertson that flicked matches at him and probably abused him when he was younger. And Bob is a state of mind that represents abused people becoming the abusers themselves. That is, Bob is just abuse manifesting itself through abuse.
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| 10. Friday, September 24, 2010 4:39 PM |
| bluefrank |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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OK...just had a re-cap on Phil Gerard. He does explain in eps13 (or claim) that he too...is an inhabiting spirit and uses Gerard as a host from 'time to time'...apparently only to stop BOB, he also claims that he is 'similar' to BOB, but that doesn't mean the same. Anyway with the 'long game' being the possession of Coop...that still doesn't all gel entirely, not that it should though. To rethink the 'form' Mike/Gerard takes in the 'redroom'...perhaps 'MFAP' (who is 'the arm') would actually have a 'typically' full grown adult body, had the said 'arm' not been removed and therefore maybe that is why we see 'the dwarf'....he is perhaps the 'diesmbodied entity' or Mike's true form. We do, afterall, see 'MFAP' in one of the last few images of the movie FWWM eating what appears to be the 'garmonbozia' seemingly reclaimed from BOB...for Laura's murder etc. That was Mike's 'bozia'...MFAP is a sort of 'post-accident', squashed down & diminished version of 'Mike'...I'm honestly not a 'dwarfist' though!!! ;-) I think (getting some serious deja-vu) I came to this conclusion before, but somehow I had forgotten this...d'oh!!! Reading it like this...kinda clears it up for me...sorry to clog the thread with my babblings!!! Still...theres some interesting responses on this thread, re: the topic.
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| 11. Wednesday, September 29, 2010 11:43 AM |
| Let's ROCK!! |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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| QUOTE:it is possible, but on the other hand, if BOB was all in Laura's mind, then it wouldn't make sense for Sarah and Maddie (and Cooper/MIKE) to see BOB with their own eyes. |
It makes me wonder, too, if Teresa Banks saw Bob as she was being murdered or if he manifested himself physically at all. It shows Leland delivering the blows in FWWM, but we've seen Bob take over Leland before without doing so...
I WANT MY GARMONBOZIA
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| 12. Friday, October 29, 2010 1:34 PM |
| Freshly Squeezed |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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Bob isn't simply a metaphor for parental abuse. How do we know? Laura isn't Bob's only victim. Moreover, Bob eventually possesses Coops. Unless we stretch the metaphor to its limits and say that Coops, as an FBI agent, is a trusted guardian of the state, comparable to Leland as parent/guardian of Laura, the idea is completely inadequate. The comment above '... he is ambiguously real, as a fictional character, as a metaphor', comes closer to understanding what Bob is. Of course, there are also limits to his ambiguity. We are far from mystified about certain aspects of his character. For example, we know that Bob aims to possess his targets, and if he can't possess takes pleasure in terrorizing. Moreover, he is cunning in possession. Also, when he takes pleasure in terrorizing his victims that pleasure is sexual to the extent that he continues to desire to possess, but frustrated by not possessing he becomes exhibitionist.
Beauty is momentary in the mind - The fitful tracing of a portal; But in the flesh it is immortal. The body dies; the body's beauty lives. So evenings die, in their green going, A wave, interminably flowing. So gardens die, their meek breath scenting the cowl of winter, done repenting. So maidens die, to the auroral Celebration of a maiden's choral. Susanna's music touched the bawdy strings Of those white elders; but, escaping, Left only Death's ironic scraping. Now in its immortality, it plays On the clear viol of her memory, And makes a constant sacrement of praise. ('Peter Quince at the Clavier' by Wallace Stevens)
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| 13. Tuesday, November 9, 2010 1:58 AM |
| lovegestapo |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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i think fire walk with me made it pretty clear that leland was possessed by BOB.
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| 14. Friday, November 19, 2010 11:37 AM |
| Blackout0189 |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
Member Since 7/6/2010 Posts:12
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| QUOTE: "Aid to the Beast Incarnate" For me...I took this more as a mirroring/twinning of the Mike & BOB relationship, perhaps a kind of 'in-joke'...but this time based in reality. Robert 'Bob' Lydecker (the vet, associates with animals/familiars) being the best friend of Phillip 'Mike' Gerard. If we take Bob Lydecker as BOB in this equation then naturally he could be seen as perhaps an 'Aid' to the beast that is incarnate...the beast perhaps being Mike. Remember that BOB was Mike's familiar and ultimately was to serve him...no doubt as part of the quest for 'Garmonbozia' harvesting. In short...BOB is the 'aid' to the beast incarnate that is Mike. But hey...thats just my own reading of it. I like the fact that 'Lydecker' and 'Waldo' have a connection to the movie 'Laura' (Waldo Lydecker)...where they start the movie with a girl named Laura...found dead...now that was a really nice touch!!!
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Who is Robert Lydecker? I thought maybe this is a public figure or something but google brings nothing? To who are you referring?
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| 15. Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:17 AM |
| Alice Remixed |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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QUOTE:i think fire walk with me made it pretty clear that leland was possessed by BOB.
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I'd argue the opposite - Fire Walk With Me added more ambiguity to the situation, it pushed both sides of the metaphor further. To my mind the series presented BOB more as a spirit - as previous posters have said, there were too many people interacting with the Red Room at too many points and sharing the visions to solely use it as a metaphor. However I feel in someways the film needs to be viewed slightly seperately from the series, Lynch wasn't bound by TVs constraints and it almost feels to me like he's trying to rebalance the situation; That Laura's abuse was glossed over too easily in the series and the film finally let's Laura voice be heard as a victim and someone who tried to stand up to her abuser. There is way less in the film to absolve Leland of his actions. That said one of the defining features of prolonged metaphors is that they are malleable and used for different needs within a narrative. So in some cases BOB will just be BOB, in other cases it'll be purely Leland's cover.
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| 16. Tuesday, November 23, 2010 11:29 AM |
| JFK |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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QUOTE: | QUOTE: "Aid to the Beast Incarnate" For me...I took this more as a mirroring/twinning of the Mike & BOB relationship, perhaps a kind of 'in-joke'...but this time based in reality. Robert 'Bob' Lydecker (the vet, associates with animals/familiars) being the best friend of Phillip 'Mike' Gerard. If we take Bob Lydecker as BOB in this equation then naturally he could be seen as perhaps an 'Aid' to the beast that is incarnate...the beast perhaps being Mike. Remember that BOB was Mike's familiar and ultimately was to serve him...no doubt as part of the quest for 'Garmonbozia' harvesting. In short...BOB is the 'aid' to the beast incarnate that is Mike. But hey...thats just my own reading of it. I like the fact that 'Lydecker' and 'Waldo' have a connection to the movie 'Laura' (Waldo Lydecker)...where they start the movie with a girl named Laura...found dead...now that was a really nice touch!!!
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Who is Robert Lydecker? I thought maybe this is a public figure or something but google brings nothing? To who are you referring?
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blackout- Robert Lydecker is the veterinarian that 1. was supposedly best friends with philip gerard and was in the hospital the first season(we never see him, he is only talked about by gerard(and its also a handy plot device to have gerard/MIKE at the hospital while laura was in the morgue))2. his office treated jacques' bird, "waldo", which coop treats as a synchronicitous clue that ties in to what happened in jacques cabin(which at that point in the series was seemingly the scene of the crime) the night of laura's death. there's a scene outside and inside his office in episode 4.
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| 17. Tuesday, November 23, 2010 6:34 PM |
| AmishNinja |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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Even though I admit the universe of twin peaks can be conflicting and confusing beyond the deeper intuitive truths one can gather. For some reason I've never really questioned the idea of leland not being possessed because I frankly havent seen any evidence to the contrary. Leland being possessed is the only way it makes sense to me. The way I look at it is even though twin peaks not only plays around with structure but also deconstructs it,It is like most lynch at its heart something resembling a narrative. I would argue that perhaps bob is a metaphore for sexual abuse,but that doesnt mean that he doesnt exist in the narrative story in twin peaks. The concept of monsters in general is a long standing metaphore for fears of our subconcious but that doesnt mean that in the context of frankenstein,that frankensteins monster is simply an abstraction. I think alot of evidence that points to leland just being crazy is lynch and frosts attempt to just give more mystery to the character. Obviously lynch thrives off of mystery and if anything,to me the entire point of twin peaks was never the answer to who killed laura palmer but simply just the questions. Twin peaks didnt entirely get the time it deserved to answer all of them but,i think even if the show had continued and cooper had gotten out of the lodge or bob had been destroyed or just whatever ending you can think of to the show...it still would of left alot of questions. I think this is no different. Basically an overly wordy pretencious way of saying:Yeah I think leland was posessed.
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| 18. Friday, January 14, 2011 1:19 PM |
| forgiveness |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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I have heard people commenting on the double meaning of Leland’s words but I think it fails to work in the non-supernatural meaning that people are getting at. Rape is without invitation that is why it is rape. I would have to agree with lovegestapo that Fire Walk With Me made it pretty clear that Leland was possessed. The series and FWWM go hand in hand. Lynch has said that FWWM should be watched after having seen the series. If fans of the series had a difficult time figuring things out those who are uninitiated are going to have an even worse go at it! Plus the film is also a sequel to the series. Lynch, to me, always seemed to be the main supporter of the supernatural element of the series. When a writer tried to reason away some aspect, whenever Lynch returned, he would negate that reason and side with the magic. A perfect case in point is the 25 years later segment. The other TP writers tried to explain it away but Lynch made it a literal truth. Just as Mike said “I mean it like it is, like it sounds”. Yes Laura was a victim of sexual abuse. This accounts for most of her destructive behaviour. I don’t believe it was glossed over on the series. It was not shown visually because at this point Laura was dead but you do hear about it and see the effects all through Laura’s life and behaviour. I don’t believe that the abuser was truly Leland, though, and the film showed this. The real triumph abuse victims make is in living not in dying. Lynch so loved the character of Laura Palmer that I don’t believe he would show her death in such a beautiful light had it not been the only option to her. If BOB was merely a metaphor for the cycle of abuse BOB would not have killed her but instead let her live. Dead the cycle could not continue, alive it could. Also Laura seemed still unwilling to change her destructive behaviour that night as her actions with James and at the cabin show yet. Killing Laura would have been counterproductive to BOB’s survival had he just been a metaphor. I think that while the film teases with the viewer and Laura’s mind up to the final scenes if BOB is real or if it is only Leland, the final few minutes prove that BOB was real and Leland was merely a puppet. At the same time you can look back on the film’s first part and see Lynch’s hints all along that Leland was not in control, the masks, some of the dialogue and especially the traffic scene where Leland is being shown to be nothing more than a vehicle BOB is beginning to wear out. I think that when Laura knows for sure the Leland/BOB connection she even believes that she was really crazy and BOB exists until the train car sequence, especially the moment that Leland/BOB places that mirror under her. Until then she had thought the worst that could happen to her was death. After this she knows that this isn’t the case: BOB wants her and intends to have her. Without this the whole importance of a ring seems silly and unneeded. I doubt Lynch would throw that in at such a serious moment. Everything in the train car points to BOB being real and the final proof, to me at least, comes when he heals Leland’s very serious wound in the Red Room. I think that BOB being real is the ultimate picture of the jigsaw puzzle. Without this many of the things will not make sense.
David Lynch: There are many things I think that are out there that we don't know about but sometimes, you know, you get certain feelings.
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| 19. Monday, August 15, 2011 12:56 PM |
| My0wl |
RE: Was Leland really possessed? |
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I sometimes wonder.... Was leland or could leland(a proffessional and good quality family man) Could he really of been that far away from the `higher spirit` of himself(Bob) For instance... when he was stood with his back to Cooper in the Great Northern hotel looking away grinning hopelessly to himself.... i guess though to Bob... leland was just a channel... `a babe in the woods`.... maybe not.,....
Myowl 
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