Hi i was just curious why there was so much animosity towards donna? I've read on other websites and other boards and a lot of people sound like they don't like her for this reason or that reason.

 Sometimes i think she may have went over the top or went overboard on certain things and sometimes i felt she could be a whiner at times.

 I've heard some people say the animosity is more towards lara flynn boyle and not donna.

 I was just curious how other people felt towards her.

That does seem to be the majority opinion among the TP fanbase.

It may have rubbed off on me now, but when I first watched TP a few years ago I didn't have a problem with her at all. In fact, I kinda looked forward to Donna's scenes if only because Lara Flynn-Boyle was really hot back then!

She wasn't a great actress for sure, but I think TP is made up of some strange acting performances (whether it's deliberate or not) and that's part of the beauty of it for me.

I guess the reason i asked about donna is i am 1 of the people who actually liked her and her character. And yes i do think lara flynn boyle is attractive.

Hi Bryan. :)  I wouldn't say there WAS a lot of animosity towards the character of Donna back in the day, she was one of the "hot trio" (her, Shelley and Audrey) that fans/press seemed more obsessed with, they seemed eager to keep up with her and looked forward more to her scenes (at least that's how it was in the U.K can't say anything about anywhere else).  I think though, that any "animosity" would be directed at Lara Flynn Boyle who played the first Donna and didn't come about until she refused to reprise her role as Donna for FWWM.  I think it's probably because of this that some fans developed a hostile attitude towards her, but in hindsight I think in some ways it was probably understandable to an extent, she was a young actress at the time and didn't want to forever be associated with one role and therefore typecast.  Sherilyn Fenn refused to reprise her role too, but the fans still seemed to love her anyway,maybe because she was filming "Of Mice and Men at the time", which I found interesting, then again she wasn't the one who said she "had a problem with the way David Lynch portrayed women".  And of course she (Boyle) was dating Kyle Maclachlan who many of us (myself included) were kind of a "bit" jealous of in our adolescent states (hehe ;p).  She was, unfortunately, an easy target.

 As for the character of Donna Hayward, I think she was actually a very interesting character and Boyle pulled her off well.  She was very pretty and a good choice for the role imo.  I didn't think she was anywhere near as "goody two shoes" and innocent as Laura made her out to be in her diary.  She smoked sometimes,  seemed to have and know how to use her own set of feminine wiles,  quiet, but shrewd with it, which I think Maddy caught onto, and the fact she was friends with Audrey, who didn't really get on with Laura interested me too.

No hostility towards Donna no.2, Moira Kelly, but I think she did an outstanding job of picking up where Boyle left off and was just as much of a "Donna" type character as Lara had been, I think she seemed more innocent in some ways though.

"watch out for my cousin.."

Congratulations on your 3000th post Maddy! (And it was a pretty good one too!)

Does anyone think that LFB was right in saying that DL treats, or depicts, women badly (if that is what she said)?

It's not something I've ever really thought about, but it would be a good discussion point. I suppose I should have really considered it before, as it is a big part of Blue Velvet.

And it was sort of public knowledge that Lara, dating Kyle, didn't want the Audrey-Cooper romance to happen and made Kyle refuse to go along with that intended plotline, using the excuse 'Cooper had morals and wouldnt date a teenager' etc etc. So the story went. Which pitted serious Audrey fans against anything Lara did.

CUTE RETRO TP COUPLE PIC ALERT:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_10yYjoTIYE0/SSstOBW0c1I/AAAAAAAACOg/-Ib4HHIxn6k/s1600-h/Lara_Flynn_Boyle_Emmy_Awards_1990.jpg

Oh, then there was that whole Is She Anorexic scandal that took up space on the tabloids for far too long, one of the first, and made her look like a self-destructive weirdo. That may have colored the opinions of some.

I like Lara. I think she is tragic and interesting as an actress and made a very mature, believable Donna (though there is something sweeter and softer about Moira Kelley.)

I always liked Donna and her part in TP. To me she represents the "good" and innocent side of Laura. It seemed to me that she became more of a "naughty" girl when she got to know the other side of Laura's personality better. But deep down she gave the impression of being a kind and loving person.

I never thought much of LFB. And I was disappointed that she turned down FWWM. But Moira did an excellent job bringing back Donna. I think LFB should not bite the hand that fed her. TP showed her to the world. Haven't seen much of her acting skills since though.

I can seperate it to my feelings while the show was on, and then post show.

During the pilot, I liked her a lot.  I thought she was one of the most interesting characters in her girl next door hurled into the dark reality of tragedy, her Norman Rockwell life thrown out of whack.

During the first season, I had no problem with her, or any character.  I think there's something very pure (and at the same time sending-up) of the earnest young lovers.  And of course, the strongest aspect to her and everyone -they're all suspects.  No matter what they're presented as on screen, there's still the curiosity if they are a murderer.  Donna was actually one of my primes candidates.  I knew enough about mysteries to know it wouldn't be someone obvious like Leo, Ben or Bobby, and the most seemingly innocent will be the culprit. 

But the problem with Donna was, I was just more excited by other characters.  It's hard to be caught up in the James/Donna romance when Audrey and Cooper create such creative sparks, or there's the dangerous element in the Bobby/Shelly duo, or even the raw fun of the devious Ben and Catherine pairing. All of Donna's scenes were usually felt by me with the urgency to hurry up because I wanted to see what's happening with the flashier Cooper, Audrey, Ben, Catherine etc. 

Not the character Donna's fault.  In fact, I think she originally was the main female character based on the pilot.  But the show blossomed out of discovery with the elements found on set, and so many exciting "accidents" happened.

During the second season, I just thought she was a wet blanket.  (even in the episodes of the first half which I consider the series to still be on track -although I love the Just You and I, and the Road House crying scene).  

I knew Kyle and Lara were dating, but had no knowledge of the (alleged) interferring with Frost's Audrey/Cooper plot.  So that had no baring on my indifference to the character.  I just thought Audrey and Cooper were being put on the back burner to give everyone their due and would be back on track during May Sweeps like all other tv shows did/do.

I find both Donna and James much less annoying when not paired up (aside from the monstrosity that is the Evelyn plotline). I really love Donna's scene at Laura's grave, that was her best piece of TP acting imo. I don't think LFB is a bad actress. I do think she's got a very healthy opinion of herself, however. Also, you've pretty much outlined why people think Donna is annoying: went over the top, went overboard on certain things, whiny, etc. :)

Er, would you like some lemonade? I also have some saltines and some apple butter. Or would you like to wash your hands?

kittyvillain.blogspot.com

I have love for Donna AND the Lara woman. I can't imagine loving Twin Peaks and not liking Donna. She's such an integral part of the first series. I thought her investigation into meals-on-wheels was one of the highlights of the series, especially the scene where she reads Laura's final diary entries to Agent Cooper. Twin Peaks fans on the internet are not necessarily representative of Twin Peaks fans as a whole... they/we tend to be obsessives with quite strong views about what we do and do not like about Twin Peaks.

I agree with 12rainbow about why the animosity towards LFB exists but non-obsessives are oblivious to LFB inadvertently derailing the series and haven't contracted the scary, viral disdain that message boards have been incubating over the last few years. The whole 'aren't Donna and James awful' thing bores me to tears. I can't help thinking people are missing the point.  

  I remember when I discovered that LFB wasn't going to be in FWWM, being disappointed, and thinking to myself, "Its ruined!"

   Regardless of whatever controversy exists/doesn't exist with LFB and TP, I think LFB was at her best in the pilot episode, and the remainder of the 1st season.  I think its a combination of factors that diminish her role as Donna for the rest of the series, including (IMO) LFB's craft as an actor.  The writers didn't do her any favors- and, as stated before, she really was 'over the top' in a lot of scenes.

   Back to FWWM:  Moira Kelly did an amazing job as Donna, again, IMO.  Enough so, that I would really have liked to see her play Donna in TP.  I think she had the correct balance of innocence, curiosity, and whatnot that Donna needed to have in the series.  

  But again, that's just one more opinion.  We've all got 'em. 

And also because she's just like all the others: she lies, she betrays, and then she LAUGHS about it. She is unclean.

I see James and Donna  as something like Romeo and Juliet. When I was in high school, the play was a tragedy. As I got older, it became a tragedy-comedy because here you have these kids that think they know it all and they will basically kill themselves to be together (can you use irony here?)

Imagine if Romeo and Juliet had gotten married at 14. What happens after the first argument or the second argument. I would assume as time goes on they would learn to actually love each other or dislike each other, but either way, relationships are not built with lust or sex, but with love. What happens when the "in love" fades and you actually have to love a person for the rest of your life?

If one looks at James and Donna, they are teenagers with all the answers and every time they do something, instead of drinking the potion, they basically force others to drink it instead. James jumps from Laura, to Donna, to Maddy, back to Donna, and then a poorly written in character. Donna is Laura's best friend, dating Mike Nelson, then suddenly is in love with James, starts to like Harold, and then back to James again. All the while James and Donna maintain that they were meant to be together. Its as close to real life teenagers as it gets.

I was disappointed by Juliet killing herself, likewise I am disappointed with Donna for the whole Harold incident. That was my turning point to the Donna character (LF Boyle is a good actress).

There have been previous threads on here about LFB bashing.  Sure, she's not the best actress in the world, but if you're gonna say that, then we could list a few others who were worse than her on TP.  I remember a lot of people saying they didn't like her cuz she was ugly or had too many freckles, or something equally as absurd.

I never had a problem with her or her acting.  Though there are a few painful scenes to watch her in. (ie;"you're my daddy!", or the Maddy/James singing scene)

Ben:  "We've laid in a gala reception for your fair-haired boys tonight.  All of Twin Peaks' best and brightest."

Jerry: "We're holding it in a phone booth?"

I HEART DONNA HAYWARD! (as played by LFB)

examples of my love HERE & HERE

InTwinPeaks.com

"I don't know...but I'm going to find out."

I love the sideways glance. 

Really old thread but I watched the show recently and ended up disliking Donna more and more as the second season went on.

 I think it's because often the story seems to be suggesting that I find her sympathetic as the 'good girl next door' and I did see that in the first season, although there were already elements of her personality that I didn't like. She seemed to have this kind of almost destructive streak that got brushed under the carpet by her girl next door image. In that she repeatedly would pursue something even when other people got hurt in the process and whenever she got called on it all she could ever seem to think about was how it in some way affected her.

 I found her almost perenially selfish, it seemed that a lot of what she did was somehow to reflect things back on her in some way. I almost feel that she went after James less because of empathy than that she couldn't bear to be dumped.

 I really couldn't forgive her for what she did to Harold Smith. All she had to do was tell the police that this man had Laura's real diary and to talk to him and also to tell Harold that's what she was going to do. But to go so far as to try to seduce an agrophobe and toy with him because she doesn't care to understand his disorder to the point that he hangs himself (and when she finds out it's, naturally, all about her "I caused some guy to kill himself wahhhhh!!!") I just could not see her character the same after that.

I also felt that the Donna character couldn't sustain the 'bad girl' moments. When both Maddy and Donna had the glasses I just found SL's performance far more nuanced.

 For all the talk of Josie's character being weak (a behaviour I found 'meek' rather than weak and quite in touch with the social hierarchy of her culture of origin) I find Donna's frequent use of her secret weapon (tears! whever something's not going how she planned just start up the waterworks) endlessly tiresome.

As the series progressed I found her moments with James more and more grating. I just didn't find her at all sympathetic anymore and that to me was the key to Donna's character, that she had empathy and was easy to empathise with.

 So that's why I can't stand Donna. I never watched the show when LBF and Kyle were dating, or knew anything about her eating disorder, but decades later when it came out on DVD.

 Finding out later that LBF had a hand in nixing the Cooper/Audrey storyline did little to endear me either. Upon rewatching it recently I find it hard to believe that that and the subsequent plotting to make Donna and Audrey more alike was an accident either. IMO, LBF could not pull off bad girl or sexy back then. If cunning and intelligence had been part of Donna's initial characterisation I might have been able to buy it but even then LBF couldn't quite nail it.

I was quite relieved that she wasn't in the film.

In the end her character had zero depth for even after it was revealed that she was somehow related to the Horne's - which seemed like a desperate measure to inject some life and personality where the was none.

ETA: I think I just found that there was nothing inherent in Donna that was indicative of a personality. What makes her, most often, watchable is her relation to other characters. Like her being Laura's best friend and her relation to James and then Maddy but she just doesn't have anything BY HERSELF that makes her in any way distinct. Even her poetry writing sister has more personality in a minimum of scenes. I felt that the strength of her character was to relate her to an archetype: the girl next door, the good girl, the juliet figure - and once you can't fall in love with the character of find her sympathetic, she's just - at best - not that interesting anymore - at worst - painfully immature and self-involved. I felt like wishing she'd left town on a hog and spent some years in the wilderness finding herself, and come back a while later with an actual personality. It would have made her far more interesting.

well, it's a hard character to make interesting based on the genre.

This is essentially a send up on the soap opera, but in that still needs to use the principles of that realm.

Donna is the good girl ingenue in a murder mystery-which is fine, just hard to sustain.  Her antics are fine to me when it's still a whodunit, and we can second guess al of her moves, ie.  why can't they tell anyone about this?  why can't they go to the police?  because she may be the killer.

in first building the show -mainly a pilot or self-standing movie, the ingenue is easier because she can have one arc that will keep you interested.  But once it's turned into a soap, it's harder to find something interesting for that type of character... continually making them a victim runs out of steam quickly.  Pam Ewing and Krystal Carrington (also characters introduced as the primary protagonists in traditional soaps Dallas and Dynasty) get side swipped in favor of flashier characters of Alexis and Sue Ellen (lesser characters initially). 

Donna is the same thing -a great tool when first planning/writing a pilot, but while continuing and sizing up the elements brought to the show once it gets running, boring to write for.

 First off, I love David Lynch and his work. It is very unique and artistic and the "strangeness" about it is what makes it what it is.

With that being said, I can kind of see why someone (in this case LFB) may say that he depicts women is questionable. Back at that time, when Wild at Heart and Blue Velvet were made, his videos had a lot of sex and nudity in them. The nudity was primarily with the women. Blue Velvet really depicted Dorothy's character as being weak and abused by a sexual deviant. Wild at Heart depicted Lula as a strong sex symbol, but it did the same with Sailor. The scene with Willem Dafoe and Laura Dern in Wild at Heart was deeply disturbing w/ the two of them in the hotel room and him "feeling" her while Sailor was outside. But if I'm not mistaken, she ended up liking it and that was the point. So in a sense, it showed the darker more carnal side of human nature and used a female to show this with.   

Lost Highway also had a lot of explicit content and nudity. So did FWWM, and maybe LFB wasn't comfortable at that time in her career doing a topless scene. (although I think she has done them since) And the storyline in Mulholland Drive is completely centered around females, and is VERY explicit.

BUT at the same time, these films also had a lot of other graphic content (violence, for instance) that involved the men. I.e., Sailor beating the brains out of another man at the beginning of Wild at Heart; the murder scene in Lost Highway; the shoot-out in Wild at Heart; Laura's murder scene...

I think that all of the graphic imagery is just Lynch's 'art' - but can see where some might lean toward thinking he depicts women negatively.

Hey nikkilucas;

I don't think that Lynch portrays women in a negative way: It's mainly a fetishization of women, though not in I think a degrading way (I think Lynch really, really loves women). Primarily through the male gaze, most of Lynch's female roles are 'types' : TP Pilot: Audrey in her checked skirt, changing from black and white pumps to sensual red shoes, being a sort of 'sexy schoolgirl' type, for instance. 'Rita' in the first half (or 'dream/fantasy' section) of Mulholland Drive is geared around the hollywood femme fatale- though the fantasy is constructed by Diane/Betty. Laura Palmer takes many Hollywood and general Newsworthy tropes of a beautiful young woman, and combines her with a femme fatale model, yet is a vulnerable, terrified girl underneath...I think Lynch's most successful 'construction' ( and then deconstruction) of both a female Fetish model is Laura Dern's role in IE:  She morphs between all sorts of hollywood/filmesque roles of femininity, and the attempt to sustain them all destroys her.

I agree that Lynch loves women. "Fetishization" is a good term to describe it. Being a Lynch fan, I appreciate what he does in his work and don't think that his intention is to degrade women. But I can see how people who are watching a film for the first time and don't understand how he uses imagery to capture a character might think that the nudity and sex are extreme. I've seen that very thing happen when I've watched his films with others who are taking it in for the first time.

It takes a closer look into his movies and their subject matter to understand the deeper meanings that are held within the plots.  I love his work, though. ;-)

i don't think Boyle ever made that comment publicly -if at all.  I might be mistaken.

personally, I think she didn't do the role because she was leaving a sinking ship and had other opportunities that would be good for her career at the time.  There was still a tv stigma, and like MacLachlan, one who fear being pigeonholed into a mold.   Boyle, Fenn and MacLachlan were all on the rise, Twin Peaks had gone from hero to zero within a year, they already had the cache of working with Lynch under their belts, it was time to strike in other pursuits while the iron was hot.

Regarding Lynch's treatment to women in films, I can easily see how it can be miscontrued.  But I agree, I think Lynch loves his female subjects; I think he loves all of his characters.  I think it would be one thing if he exploited them and threw their characters away (which sometimes i think Kubrick would do), but Lynch continues to delve deeper into their pysches after the questionable expolitives scenes are through.  Roger Ebert's famous one-star review of Blue Velvet was so caught up on Rossellini's public nude scene because he felt it was not only exploitive but unflattering (!!).  To me, he missed one of the strengths of that scene, and a lot of his review was hung up on that moment.