 |
|
|
|
|
|
Twin Peaks & FWWM
> another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP
|
|
New Topic |
Post Reply
|
<< |
1 |
>>
| 1. Monday, November 30, 2009 6:39 AM |
| JFK |
another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 5/5/2007 Posts:562
View Profile Send PM
|
what if the imperfect courage that cooper showed, which would expain how BOB/COOPERDOPPELGANGER was able stop him from leaving the lodge(as annie herself says to Laura in the dream that followed the hanged picture in FWWM), was that he wasnt able to face windom earle without fear? he was willing to sacrifice himself, on the vague promise annie will live, and honorable sure, but he still fears what earle would do if he didnt agree to his terms. and the fact that BOB is behind all this, ie. the screaming laura has a few frames of windoms head in negative exposure in it that scares cooper into running, then the silencing of windom by BOB, shows thats BOBs in charge in the BL. as least during the intital fire walk... part. i believe MIKE and MFAP(and the giant) function in different aspects of the lodge. as the MFAP and giant are only shown in the waiting room(and MFAP again in "wrong way" when coop walks back to the waiting room before entering lodge proper), emphasizing the separation of waiting room to BL after the invocation of "fire walk with me" that MFAP says before the shots of fire(which look to be lifted from wild at heart), as we also hear the screams of laura's doppelganger after the fire and as the strobes start up again. MIKE and MFAP and BOB are seen at the end of FWWM only in the red room, could be BL or WL. and there, BOB is defintiely not in charge, and definitely not happy, which makes it seem likely not a BL moment. but dont let my question get boged down in tripe, is it the fear of earle that prevents coop from moving from BL to WL(in ep.29 that is)?* *(as the ending of FWWM i think is clear in ending in the WL, with laura, cooper holding her sholder, and her angel returned.)
|
| 2. Monday, November 30, 2009 6:33 AM |
| JFK |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 5/5/2007 Posts:562
View Profile Send PM
|
anyone? i feel this is an important point that hasnt been discussed yet. in fact i dont think ive heard a decent theory on why coop is taken over by bob anywhere. dont get me wrong, im the one making points in other threads about the abstractness of TP when lynch is directing, but i dont think this plot point/concept is so esoteric as, say, the garmonbozia thing. dont leave me out on a limb here :)
|
| 3. Monday, November 30, 2009 10:53 AM |
| Rami Airola |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 12/20/2005 Posts:229
View Profile Send PM
|
It's an interesting thought to see Cooper's will to sacrifice himself as an act of cowardice. I don't know if I'd really support that theory though. To me it's more like this: Cooper went into the Black Lodge. Windom was messing around there. We clearly see that Cooper does fear Windom at least a bit. However, he stays calm while finally meeting Windom. He offers himself to Windom so that Annie would live. I see why you think that act would be all about fear but I don't think that wasn't the intention of it. We know Hawk said that the test in the Black Lodge happens between a person and his shadow self. Even if Windom tried to get the powers of Black Lodge to himself I don't think he was able to be at par with the shadow self in deciding who'll pass the test. I see Cooper fearing Windom but conquering that fear BUT in the end failing to meet the REAL challenge; he's a good person but is he able to face all the negativity and the will to do evil within himself. He didn't want to face his shadow self. He ran away from it as fast as he could.
|
| 4. Monday, November 30, 2009 5:27 PM |
| JFK |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 5/5/2007 Posts:562
View Profile Send PM
|
| QUOTE: It's an interesting thought to see Cooper's will to sacrifice himself as an act of cowardice. I don't know if I'd really support that theory though. To me it's more like this: Cooper went into the Black Lodge. Windom was messing around there. We clearly see that Cooper does fear Windom at least a bit. However, he stays calm while finally meeting Windom. He offers himself to Windom so that Annie would live. I see why you think that act would be all about fear but I don't think that wasn't the intention of it. We know Hawk said that the test in the Black Lodge happens between a person and his shadow self. Even if Windom tried to get the powers of Black Lodge to himself I don't think he was able to be at par with the shadow self in deciding who'll pass the test. I see Cooper fearing Windom but conquering that fear BUT in the end failing to meet the REAL challenge; he's a good person but is he able to face all the negativity and the will to do evil within himself. He didn't want to face his shadow self. He ran away from it as fast as he could.
|
but isnt the shadow self, the doppelganger, more than just another cooper with grey eyes? isnt it the personification of what we most fear within ourselves, as told by hawk earlier in the series? Even if Windom tried to get the powers of Black Lodge to himself I don't think he was able to be at par with the shadow self in deciding who'll pass the test my point was that it is was BOB behind all of what happens in the BL. he let earle be part of the test, the firewalk, for fear. He offers himself to Windom so that Annie would live. I see why you think that act would be all about fear but I don't think that wasn't the intention of it. it isnt about intention. the fact that he feared what earle would do if he didnt give him his soul is the last thing that happens before BOB shows up. THIS is the real challenge. as coop said, in reference to josie's death and seeing BOB and MFAP right after it, BOB is attracted to fear, to pain and suffering. when cooper gave his soul to someone who CANT ask for his soul, i believe he showed himself to have the the imperfect courage that, if shown in the BL, will annihilate one's soul, and which lets his shadow self out into the world, while he remains trapped in the lodge. He ran away from it as fast as he could. not fast enough...
thanks rami, i think this is an important part of TP that has been lost in all the mythology. i appreciate the discussion.
|
| 5. Wednesday, December 2, 2009 5:44 PM |
| coolspringsj |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 8/8/2007 Posts:3412
View Profile Send PM
|
I believe what did Cooper in with regards to fear was the sudden realization creeping into his mind that what went down with Caroline/Earle/himself in the past was going to repeat itself with Annie/Earle/himself. Stephen King or somebody said Hell is repetition (sp?) and what worse of a thing is there to repeat than witnessing the death of the person you are madly in love with (twice)? I think Cooper made a noble, gallant effort to save his queen, but came up short because he had gone through this same nightmare before and doubt crept in which eventually formed into fear and the whole imperfect soul business.
"Harry, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Every day, once a day, give yourself a present. Don't plan it, don't wait for it, just let it happen. Could be a new shirt at the men's store, a catnap in your office chair, or two cups of good, hot, black coffee. Like this." -Dale Cooper
|
| 6. Wednesday, December 2, 2009 6:31 PM |
| eggdogg |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 8/25/2009 Posts:8
View Profile Send PM
|
I though that if you enter the BL with any fear in your heart you won't make it out. I thought that Cooper failed to protect Annie and that began to make him question himself which allowed the seed of fear to grow. So by the time he got to the BL he was already forfeit. Which leads me to what I believe to be the main Lychian subject of TW.....Overcoming fear and the human condition.
|
| 7. Wednesday, December 2, 2009 10:39 PM |
| JFK |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 5/5/2007 Posts:562
View Profile Send PM
|
well put, coolsprings and eggdog. i would agree with both your points.
|
| 8. Friday, December 4, 2009 3:20 PM |
| Rami Airola |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 12/20/2005 Posts:229
View Profile Send PM
|
but isnt the shadow self, the doppelganger, more than just another cooper with grey eyes? isnt it the personification of what we most fear within ourselves, as told by hawk earlier in the series? Yes. But I think the fear within Cooper himself isn't all about what Earle could do but it's more about what Cooper fears Cooper himself can't do. The fear concerning Windom isn't really fully about Windom's ability to do bad things but it's more about Cooper not being able to save his loved ones. my point was that it is was BOB behind all of what happens in the BL. he let earle be part of the test, the firewalk, for fear I see it as a "softening" of Cooper so that when he finally confronts his shadow self he's already weak. So yes, it certainly is a part of the test. it isnt about intention. the fact that he feared what earle would do if he didnt give him his soul is the last thing that happens before BOB shows up. THIS is the real challenge. as coop said, in reference to josie's death and seeing BOB and MFAP right after it, BOB is attracted to fear, to pain and suffering. when cooper gave his soul to someone who CANT ask for his soul, i believe he showed himself to have the the imperfect courage that, if shown in the BL, will annihilate one's soul, and which lets his shadow self out into the world, while he remains trapped in the lodge. Well yeah, I see Black Lodge as a place where people see things, thoughts and feelings from their past and the final thing to confront is all the negative things people have in their hearts and the sum of all the negative things is their doppelganger. All the things seen before that confrontation do have an effect on that moment. Yes, facing Earle and remembering and feeling all the awful things that happened (Earle murdering Caroline, Cooper feeling guilty because he wasn't able to stop it) made Cooper too weak to face his doppelganger. I think I misunderstood some of the things you meant. I think I now understand what you wrote and I do agree with you but I'd give more emphasis to Cooper's fear of himself. I mean that the thing with Earle didn't only trigger Cooper's fear of Earle but it also triggered Cooper's fear of how he might not be able to be there to help his loved ones.
|
| 9. Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:22 PM |
| JFK |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 5/5/2007 Posts:562
View Profile Send PM
|
"The fear concerning Windom isn't really fully about Windom's ability to do bad things but it's more about Cooper not being able to save his loved ones." i like this idea quite a bit. im sorry i wasnt more explicit, but this was what i was trying to say in my first post. and really, we are saying the same things. cooper's fear of what windom will do is the same as cooper's fear that he wont be able to stop him, as coolsprings pointed out, just like before with caroline. but i think you still put too much concreteness on the doppelganger cooper and the chase at the end. i agree that that race to the exit is cooper facing his doppleganger, but again, BOB is behind all of this. and i believe BOB basically manipulated earle into making cooper show fear. as i said before, THIS was the challenge of the black lodge. because cooper failed, his doppelganger caught up to him, and he became trapped in the lodge, as his doppleganger(which is basically someone in the TP world who is possed by BOB) made it out. it isnt that if he made it out before the doppelganger, he would be free from possession, i think the doppelgangers are part of the way BOB does business. the real person is trapped in the lodge, while the doppleganger takes the form of the person, but possessed by BOB(as we see with leland(maddy is too far away to be able to tell, tho its interesting that MFAP place has a doppleganger, i hadnt thought of that before. anyway, coopers fate was sealed by fear, and there was no way he was going to make it out of there. whos to say that when the doppelganger caught up with him that that was the exit? does that make sense?
|
| 10. Tuesday, December 8, 2009 5:44 PM |
| Rami Airola |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 12/20/2005 Posts:229
View Profile Send PM
|
| QUOTE: "The fear concerning Windom isn't really fully about Windom's ability to do bad things but it's more about Cooper not being able to save his loved ones." i like this idea quite a bit. im sorry i wasnt more explicit, but this was what i was trying to say in my first post. and really, we are saying the same things. cooper's fear of what windom will do is the same as cooper's fear that he wont be able to stop him, as coolsprings pointed out, just like before with caroline. but i think you still put too much concreteness on the doppelganger cooper and the chase at the end. i agree that that race to the exit is cooper facing his doppleganger, but again, BOB is behind all of this. and i believe BOB basically manipulated earle into making cooper show fear. as i said before, THIS was the challenge of the black lodge. because cooper failed, his doppelganger caught up to him, and he became trapped in the lodge, as his doppleganger(which is basically someone in the TP world who is possed by BOB) made it out. it isnt that if he made it out before the doppelganger, he would be free from possession, i think the doppelgangers are part of the way BOB does business. the real person is trapped in the lodge, while the doppleganger takes the form of the person, but possessed by BOB(as we see with leland(maddy is too far away to be able to tell, tho its interesting that MFAP place has a doppleganger, i hadnt thought of that before. anyway, coopers fate was sealed by fear, and there was no way he was going to make it out of there. whos to say that when the doppelganger caught up with him that that was the exit? does that make sense? |
About the exit. I don't know if the intention of the makers was to make it look like Cooper and his Doppelganger were just near the exit. Usually furniture and stuff like that are put in the scene for a reason. Usually they just wouldn't put some chairs and stuff on screen and light them just for the heck of it. So as we see the exact same looking room at the beginning when Cooper enters the Lodge as we see in the last shot of the Lodge we are made to think that it was the exit. But then again that isn't necessarily the case. Somehow I think it just isn't possible to leave the place at one's will. If the "rules" say you'll have to face your Doppelganger, then you'll have to face it. So basically Cooper could've run there forever until the encounter finally happens. But then again it feels interesting to think that one is able to exit the place. That there could be the possibility. About Windom. I just don't see Coper being that much scared after Bob took Windom's soul so it's quite hard for me to think that the encounter with Windom would've been THE moment that sealed Cooper's fate. If I imagine myself in that situation I'd possibly think that if my worst enemy was annihilated just like that by some other force I'd sure be scared of that other force more than my original enemy. Somehow I just like to think that Cooper showed huge ability to love when he sacrificed himself. And by doing that he proved that his love was pure. But the second he saw the dark side of himself, face to face, he started to run away, thus losing the battle against his inner demons. He was able to love others but he wasn't able to face himself. But yeah, that's just something I like to think, not that it would be the truth.
But I see where you come from. I understand why you think the thing with Windom was the trial. However I still like to think that no matter how much Bob was in charge of the place Windom did what he did without anykind of manipulation. I'd say Bob allowed Windom to do what he did more than he manipulated him. And yes, if he knew what he was doing and allowed him to do that it could be so that Bob used Windom to make Cooper scared. Ot if he didn't directly use Windom, he at least was checking out the situation to see if he could feed on some sense of fear that would be spread around. Although we really don't know how much in charge Bob is in the Black Lodge. He could basically be just a hungry dog left to search for some fear and suffering (and who has an ability to manipulate time and take souls and stuff like that). What comes to Cooper and his Doppelganger, I think that when a Doppelganger steps out in a real world he actually is a real person. I mean that he is Dale Cooper. That Cooper who got trapped in the Lodge isn't "the real" physical version of that person. It's just the exact good side of Cooper that got trapped and the exact bad side is now in a total control of Cooper. Cooper basically lost all of his will to do good in the Lodge and left all the will to do bad in his body. That Dale who now wanders around in the Lodge isn't "the real" Cooper. It's just all the good he had inside of him. (wow, I seem to have a habit to write a lot of things twice in a row but with different wording :D ) Oh well, I did some off topic theorizing there... I don't even know if I really answered to the things you wrote :D Anyways, I understand why you think what you think. And I basically agree with you on the fact that there wasn't any way for Cooper to make it out of there (although I can't really say it's a fact as I can't be 100% sure there isn't a way out without facing the doppelganger). I just somehow can't think that the fear Cooper feels at the moment he sacrifices himself (if he even feels any fear.. maybe he feels love) would be the exact thing that seals his fate and stays that way over the death of Windom and the meeting of Leland's Doppelganger and stuff like that. I'd say it would've been possible for Cooper to get his courage up between the moment he saw Windom's soul getting drawn away and seeing his doppelganger in the corridor and I still think the choice of him starting to run away after seeing the Doppelganger was THE choice that sealed the deal. And perhaps even during the chase he could've stop, feel a burst of courage and face the doppelganger. But he chose to run, run and run. Yes, the choice to run might've been because of Windom but I just can't see it that way after witnessing him seeing Windom die. I just think that even during the run there were still moments of choice. People always have a choice, no matter how scared they are. I don't know how much I just confuse you or how much I seem to be stubborn with my theories. This has been fun to think and to write, nevertheless. :)
|
| 11. Tuesday, December 8, 2009 7:16 PM |
| JFK |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 5/5/2007 Posts:562
View Profile Send PM
|
i am enjoying this as well. glad im not alone in being "impressed" with the lodges.
|
| 12. Wednesday, December 9, 2009 3:20 AM |
| JFK |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 5/5/2007 Posts:562
View Profile Send PM
|
.
|
| 13. Thursday, June 24, 2010 2:32 PM |
| grantm |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 6/1/2010 Posts:17
View Profile Send PM
|
Yeah agree with coolspring think the fear that manifests in Cooper comes from the fact he can see the Earle/Caroline/Cooper situation repeating with Annie as the victim-when his doppleganger materilizes it stops and laughes victoriously with BOB as if to suggest the battle for his soul is already won.
|
| 14. Monday, June 28, 2010 9:35 AM |
| LODGE4 |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 4/12/2007 Posts:217
View Profile Send PM
|
Cooper was doomed when he ran from his shadow self at the end of the finale in the Black Lodge - when his doppleganger finally caught up to the running Dale and tackeled him you can hear BOB's laugh - BOB won !!! That's why Cooper was trapped - he showed imperfect courage when he ran from his doppleganger, nothing to do with Windom Earle.
|
| 15. Monday, June 28, 2010 4:43 PM |
| JFK |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 5/5/2007 Posts:562
View Profile Send PM
|
| QUOTE:Cooper was doomed when he ran from his shadow self at the end of the finale in the Black Lodge - when his doppleganger finally caught up to the running Dale and tackeled him you can hear BOB's laugh - BOB won !!! That's why Cooper was trapped - he showed imperfect courage when he ran from his doppleganger, nothing to do with Windom Earle. |
i always interpeted the running to be a race to the exit, cooper trying to get out before the doppelganger did, but i like this theroy as well. but i cant abide your last sentence, i think BOB let windom bring the fear out and saw his chance when windom overstepped his bounds and asked for coopers soul. BOB then took windoms soul for asking for something he couldnt take. dont forget that the doppelganger is the vessel through which BOB inhabits in cooper form once out. windom was part of the test as much as the race to the exit.
|
| 16. Wednesday, June 30, 2010 4:54 AM |
| LODGE4 |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 4/12/2007 Posts:217
View Profile Send PM
|
BOB took Windon's soul for the same reason he took Josie's soul (well, trapping her in the wood, anyway)- They tried to kill Coop - Josie shot him and Windom stabbed him in the Lodge - If they had succeeded in killing him, BOB's plan to possess Cooper would have ended. Remember, BOB yelled at Windom and killed him right after he (Windom)stabbed Cooper.
|
| 17. Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:07 AM |
| JFK |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 5/5/2007 Posts:562
View Profile Send PM
|
i like the josie resaoning, but he says right after the stabbing that windom cant take coopers soul. i guess there's an ambiguity there. is it because windom has overstepped his boundries, as in trying to do what only the lodge spirits can do? or is it because cooper was to be saved for BOB, and he had to stop windom? i guess i can see it both ways.
|
| 18. Wednesday, February 2, 2011 4:13 PM |
| grantm |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 6/1/2010 Posts:17
View Profile Send PM
|
Yeah agree with JFK there something that ive thought to when BOB says he cant take YOUR soul he puts the emphasis on YOUR as if to say Windom cant have it because its mine or could just be a generalisation that Windom hasnt the power to ask for peoples souls.Personally i think BOB is letting the situation play out between cooper and earle-he steps in when earle crosses the boundary.Coopers failure is being unable to face his own shadow self and ultimately fails the test.
|
| 19. Wednesday, February 2, 2011 8:25 PM |
| GarlandBozia |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 1/22/2011 Posts:48
View Profile Send PM
|
I have read most of the posts in this thread and find them very interesting. I haven't had time to go through all of them yet though so sorry if I repeat something here.
I have a few theories about what happened. One is that Windom IS the evil Cooper. Notice how the doppelganger appears just after BOB takes Windom's soul. Is that a coincidence? Maybe BOB extracts the soul and creates the dobbelganger from it. Why would we see BOB take Windom's soul if it was not to appear again? We sense Cooper's fear of Windom throughout the second season. If Windom is the personification of Cooper's evil side, this fear makes sense: Cooper is afraid to confront himself, hence fears Windom.
Also, why is Windom so fascinated by the black lodge? He talks about it and is fascinated by it when he is with Leo. Maybe he originates from the black lodge (but he is not aware of it just like Leland is not aware that he is possessed by BOB). And maybe Cooper's soul originated from the white lodge: there is nothing evil in him in the show. Also recall that the waiter at the great northern says to Cooper: I know about you. I think the waiter/giant are from the white lodge.
The reason why Cooper fears himself is that he's never been confronted with his dark side: it's been separated from him and contained in Windom. Until the end.
Of course this is just one theory and I'm not completely convinced of it myself. Interested to hear others' view on it.
Th vwls r nt wht th sm
|
| 20. Thursday, February 10, 2011 8:02 AM |
| LODGE4 |
RE: another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP |
Member Since 4/12/2007 Posts:217
View Profile Send PM
|
Good catch !!! I've been saying for the last 20 years now that Windom was trapped in the Black Lodge back in 1967 and now (1991) his doppleganger breaks out of the insane asylum because it's almost time to go back (25 years). The REAL Windom Earl was released when BOB "killed" his doppleganger in the season 2 finale and now Cooper is trapped there for 25 years. Season 3 would have probably seen the REAL Windom Earl tracking down his partner, the possessed doppleganger Agent Cooper.
|
|
New Topic |
Post Reply
|
Page 1 of 1 ::
<< |
1 |
>>
|
|
Twin Peaks & FWWM
> another idea after another watch of the last twenty min. of TP
|
| Users viewing this Topic (0) |
| |
Powered by JorkelBB 2006 (Version 1.0b)
|
|
|