Forgiveness, it's a very compelling theory, I must admit. What's interesting about it is that 1) it actually works on its own terms (for the most part), 2) goes a long way to explaining most of FWWM and Twin Peaks, and 3) is almost mutually exclusive with a lot of my own theories.

I do think there are some contradictions/inconsistencies to your story, however. Firstly, let me address the idea of the Jumping Man being Cooper. This has been suggested before, of course, and usually stems from Jeffries' line "who do you think this is there", which is spoken while the Jumping Man fades on screen. I've often wondered about the implied connection myself but ultimately, I just have a difficult time accepting the Jumping Man as a representation of Cooper. I mean, why on earth would Cooper look like this inside the Lodge? What part of Cooper does the Jumping Man represent?

Question is: does Jeffries really point at Cooper? If you look closely, it actually seems like he's pointing to someone off screen, almost out of focus. His finger trembles yet Cooper is standing right in front of him. Still, the fact remains that Jeffries clearly recognizes Cooper, yet Cooper is nowhere to be seen during the Lodge meeting. Again, this might lead us to conclude that he is indeed represented by the Jumping Man but like I said: the Jumping Man looks nothing like Cooper. If this is the man Jeffries saw I see no reason why he would later identify Cooper with him.

Another point of interest is Bob's apparent control over the Jumping Man. This does suggest that he is one of Bob's puppets, especially since he wears the mask and holds the bauble. At one point Pierre Tremond (himself wearing the mask and the bauble) literally refers to Bob as "the man behind the mask". The connection is particularly strong if we accept Pierre as a young Leland. Then we can really discern a chronology in Bob's hosts by tracking who wears the mask and when. I like this part of your theory very much Forgiveness.

Unfortunately, there is also a slight problem. Pierre Tremond is seen three times without the mask. The first time occurs during the Lodge meeting, but here the Jumping Man wears it so it is accounted for. We may accept that the scene takes place in the future, that Leland is dead, and that Bob has transferred to whomever is represented by the Jumping Man. The second time occurs during Laura's dream sequence, when Pierre transports her to the Red Room. If we follow the "mask theory", the scene implies that it also takes place in the future, after Leland has died. This is somewhat corroborated by Cooper's appearance shortly after, who did not arrive in the Red Room until long after Leland was dead. Still, it's a tricky concept since time does not technically exist inside the Lodge. The third time is when Donna meets the Tremonds on the show. Here, there is a problem. Pierre is not wearing the mask yet Leland is still alive at this point. Either it doesn't fit and the theory is wrong, or it does fit but it was retconned by Lynch in FWWM.

Anyway, I'm out of text for now. More remarks on the MFAP's allegiance to follow...

It's fascinating to follow this discussion.

I have a new theory about who Judy is. I don't think it's been mentioned before. I'm not saying I believe in it (yet) but I thought I would share it with you anyway.

Judy is Garland Briggs' spirit. Remember how Garland Briggs talks about Judy Garland? It could very well be a reference to The Wizard of Oz but maybe there is a different meaning to it also. When the major is mentioning "Judy Garland", he's been influenced by the drugs that Windom used to extract secrets from him. So it's likely that he's still talking about lodge stuff when he mentions Judy. Also remember that the major was "taken" several times, possibly to the white lodge. Maybe his spirit belongs there. Finally, recall that in the last episode, Mrs. Palmer tells the major "I'm in the black lodge with Dale Cooper". This might be Laura trying to reach the major... or Judy. Maybe Judy is Laura's sister in the spirit world and Laura is asking her for help.

It seems strange that the major, having such an important role in the lodge plot of the show, should not be involved in FWWM in one way or the other. I'm interested to hear opinions on this.

Christian

 Sorry for the long time in replying!

How does the Jumping Man resemble Dale?

The Jumping Man wears red. Several things can explain this in regards to Dale. First he is trapped inside the Black Lodge and this is also where BOB got his entrance into him. This fits with the boy's mask having a twig on the forehead. BOB got into Leland via a dream. The Black Lodge is covered with red curtains. Second it could represent the deal that Dale or his evil side has made with BOB. The doppelganger left the Black Lodge following the finale while the good Dale was left in the Black Lodge. It seems likely that the completely evil being would strike the same partnership that BOB once had with Mike before he reformed. They could perform evil together without the complications of a conscience. Fire is often deemed to be red. Fire Walk with Me was the tattoo that linked BOB and Mike. The mask has ears, eyeholes and a mouth because evil Dale is BOB’s accomplice and neither must hide their actions from one another. Dale was also aware of BOB when he was possessed as opposed to poor Leland. Insteresting also is the fact that when the Jumping Man wears the mask it seems to be a part of himself and not merely a mask.

In the script, and since this is in the movie, it states that Jeffries points at Cooper. His trembling hand could be more one out of fear. Poor Phillip also seems to be physically disoriented after the trip. I theorize also that Jeffries knew Dale both as the Jumping Man and also when Jeffries followed Mike and BOB into the Black Lodge.

Why Pierre is not wearing the mask in certain scenes can be easily explained. When Pierre is not wearing the mask BOB is not in control of Leland.  The host must only wear the mask while BOB is likewise using the host’s face as his own mask.

This explains why Pierre is without the mask. First during the convenience store when Leland is dead and Cooper is now possessed. The second time is during Laura’s dream. We know that BOB was not controlling Leland this night. We visually saw BOB leaving his host before Leland enters Laura’s bedroom to say that he loves her. Sarah had previously been waiting by the mirror, expecting another drugged drink I’d wager, but thank God BOB seemed to leave. This also goes into a certain Providence working things out. Since BOB/Leland was earlier very angry and jealous about Laura’s heart necklace by all logic BOB should have paid Laura a visit that night. However, for some reason, he did not and Leland was in full possession of his body that night. It can’t be a coincidence that this coincides with the picture given to Laura.  The third time as you mentioned is when Donna visits the Tremonds. From Leland’s scene in this episode, discovering the sketch of BOB and revealing that he knew him, it seems that Leland was not possessed during this incident. Leland also seems naively child-like in the afore-mentioned scene. He bungled up Ben and Jerry’s plans while in the scene when BOB/Leland steals the fur from Ben’s office he was very smart and sly.

When Pierre wears the mask we know that BOB is in control as in the scene where BOB/Leland is looking for Laura's secret diary and when BOB/Leland is leaving the motel after having seen Laura.

The theory still fits and supports FWWM.

Okay, you got me convinced, nice!

...except on the Jumping Man being Cooper, sorry :) The mask stuff is very solid but I still find it very strange to think that the Jumping Man is supposed to be Cooper. Let me explain why...

Let's start by accepting that Pierre Tremond represents the young Leland. This obviously begs the question what a young Leland is doing in the Black Lodge in the first place. Let's assume that, when Bob takes possession of a person, some kind of spirit swap occurs: the unspoiled part of the soul is trapped inside the Black Lodge while the body returns to the world occupied by Bob. This is basically what happens to Cooper at the end of Twin Peaks. The good part of himself is frozen in time forever inside the Black Lodge.

A similar thing could have happened to Leland. He claims that he was possessed at a young age, so by drawing the comparison with Cooper, we need to account for a spirit inside the Black Lodge representing the "good part" of Leland Palmer, frozen in childhood. Pierre Tremond is an ideal candidate for this role. I think we can agree on these points.

A key issue, however, is that Pierre Tremond does not change appearance during his time inside the Lodge. Even far into the future (whether Leland is dead or alive), he still looks like a young Leland. I see no reason to assume that a trapped soul changes appearance at all inside the Lodge. In fact, the evidence is to the contrary: when Cooper is seen comforting Laura in the White Lodge at the end of FWWM, he still looks the same as the day his soul was trapped inside the Black Lodge, and this scene presumably takes place 25 years into the future. So why would he suddenly change appearance and turn into the Jumping Man?

I also don't accept the idea that the doppelgangers are actual Lodge spirits like Mike or Bob, or that Cooper's soul was replaced by a "bad version" that is something other than Bob. There is only a good Cooper and a bad Cooper in the sense that there is a "real" Cooper trapped inside the Lodge (or at least his soul), and a Bob-inhabited Cooper in the real world. The doppelgangers are a product of the Black Lodge test, in my opinion. If the Jumping Man is a doppelganger, however, then we should also see doppelgangers for other spirits such as the MFAP.

Another issue concerns the Jumping Man's appearance and behaviour, which to me resemble the MFAP's much more closely than Cooper's: the red suit, the dancing, the obvious glee,... For me the suit alone is not enough to establish a connection with Cooper. The Jumping Man's hair, moreover, is quite problematic for such a comparison to work. Philip Jeffries could not possibly identify the "normal looking" Cooper based on the Jumping Man.

For me it's actually a lot less convoluted to identify the Jumping Man as the old Mike rather than as Cooper, not only for reasons of appearance (the red suit is obvious) but also with regards to the Lodge meeting scene. This brings us back to the question of chronology and whether the scene takes place in the past or the (far) future. I would still argue that we are in the past, for several reasons:

* Why establish the importance of the green ring if the events of FWWM and Twin Peaks are long past at that point?
* Why is Pierre Tremond still here if Leland is long dead by then?
* Why introduce a missing/past FBI agent into the story if the Lodge meeting did not also take place in the (far) past?

I think the issue about the green ring is particularly relevant with regards to the Jumping Man. I mean, why bother introducing the green ring if you don't refer to its origins inside the Lodge hierarchy in the first place. For me, that origin is still the death of the old Mike, and the old Mike is the Jumping Man. When Bob claps his hands, this character officially ceases to exist.

The scene in the Red Room at the end of Fire Walk With Me takes place after Cooper enters the Black Lodge in the final episode of the series. The ending in the shooting script was changed during filming but the logic is essentially the same - after the discovery of Laura's body the film jumps forward two months and would have shown Annie in hospital and Cooper in his room the Great Northern. it was supposed to conclude with Cooper in the Red Room to remind viewers he was trapped - if the series hadn't been cancelled or Fire Walk With Me had been commercially successful Cooper would have been rescued from the Lodge. That's why Cooper hasn't aged in the final scene.

In the series Laura does meet Cooper 25 years later and he has aged. I've always assumed this was because DL wanted the mystery of Laura's murder to retreat into the background and only be solved many years later (her murder was supposed to be a McGuffin). When ABC forced Lynch/Frost to solve the murder this was thrown out of the window and Cooper's meeting with Laura had to be moved forward 25 years due to contractual obligations! 

The problem with trying to foist definitive solutions on DL's work is beautiful abstractions invariably get clubbed to death in the process. Fire Walk With Me is my favourite film and I've lived with it since it was released - it gives you room to dream* and in that sense the not knowing is far more beautiful than knowing. 

* it's a thick beauty. 

I don’t think that an unspoiled part of a person remains trapped inside the Lodge while the body returns to the world occupied by BOB. This wouldn’t make sense since we see the boy outside of the Lodge. What happened to Dale was drastically different than what happened to Leland. BOB got to Leland through a dream. BOB got to Dale when he physically entered the Lodge during the conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn.

To me Pierre is not a version of the good Leland. Leland is still Leland and he possesses all the good and bad qualities, apart from BOB, he had when he was a child and as an adult also. No part is trapped inside the Lodge like Dale.  It was just an abstraction that was created when BOB received the invitation. That is why he is a boy and remains that way. The moment of possession is integral for the form of the abstraction.

With Cooper it was different. His good self was trapped inside the Lodge while his evil self was set free. Annie confirms this during Laura's dream.  The Jumping Man represents Dale possessed but is not Dale. This is why Dale still looks exactly the same at the end of FWWM. The abstraction of BOB possession, ie. The boy, the monkey and the Jumping Man are separate from the actual host.

Dale created an evil side of himself when he chose to be perfect. This evil side is very much a part of Cooper. Read the Log Lady introduction about division for episode 15, I believe. Dale was not a properly balanced individual and because of this his evil side was extremely powerful. The balance was not there. Because of this, and the conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn, the evil Dale was able to overpower Cooper and leave.  Once more the Jumping Man is not the doppelganger itself or Cooper. It is an abstraction of the possessed state of the host to BOB.

To me the Jumping Man very well resembles Dale possessed.

 I have always believed that the red suit the MFAP wears symbolizes the “Fire Walk With Me” tattoo. It is just a piece of clothing. The Jumping Man wears the same. On the finale Cooper twice said “Fire Walk With Me”. The first time he said it, Harry looked kind of disturbed at his best friend, like it unnerved him in a way. When Cooper’s coffee turns into the black oil symbolic of BOB the MFAP utters the phrase again before we see Fire. Laura’s fear was to burst into flames. She avoided this but Dale did not. Fire Walk With Me is the term used for BOB possession. BOB is the fire that walks with his host.

“Do you want to play with fire, little boy? Do you want to play with BOB?”

The hair doesn’t bother me either. From what I can see that was the actor's own unique style. I don’t think David would change that or think it was necessary. The boy is blond after all while Leland has dark hair. If it is problematic in regards to Dale by all logic it would be problematic to Mike. Mike and the MFAP are the same. The MFAP's hair hardly resembles the Jumping Man nor did Phillip Gerard's. At least the Jumping Man's hair is black like Dale's.

As for the Jumping Man’s movements, I don’t know if that is supposed to be dancing. He is credited as the Jumping Man not the Dancing Man. This links him more to the boy who we see jumping later on in FWWM than the MFAP. The movements seem more animal or bird like. "The owls are not what they seem."

I don’t see how it could be convoluted to see Dale as the Jumping Man when Lynch decided to pop this strange figure up when Dale is being accused by Jeffries and introduced by Cole.

However, as I stated I think that the one that Jeffries knows is possibly the Dale, the good Dale, he discovered in the Black Lodge when he followed BOB and Mike/MFAP inside. This is the one, supposedly the good side, that was going to tell Laura not to take the ring.

* Why establish the importance of the green ring if the events of FWWM and Twin Peaks are long past at that point?

Answer: The events of FWWM are NOT completely preceding the series. It is the past and the future colliding. FWWM is meant to directly follow the finale. It is the fire poem incarnate and that is why it is named “Fire Walk With Me”. “Through the darkness of future past” TWICE the MFAP was to ask Dale if it was future or if it was the past. We see the future Dale tell Laura not to take the ring. We know this is the future Dale, the one trapped inside the Lodge because he knows her name. He didn’t before he had arrived in Twin Peaks.

This is the moment that the past could change and thus the whole series. If Laura listens to Dale everything changes. The ring is important because it is what saved Laura. Seen in the context of the meeting, it could symbolize a potential host for Mike: "With this ring I thee Wed." This is how he saved Laura from BOB. Without it BOB would not have killed her and she would have become his host.

When things remained the same, Laura still dead, the film was supposed to end in the future with Dale noticing the ring gone and the MFAP telling him he was going home. I believe this meant that the good Dale, no longer pure, was sent back to his body. You can't age inside the Red Room and in the 25 years later dream Coop is definitely old. This scene was followed by Annie and also by Truman and Hayward finding Dale bloody on the bathroom floor.

Fact: The script shows a time directly following the finale.

Fact: These scenes were filmed.

Fact: Time travel does exist in the Lodges, BOB reversing Windom stabbing Coop, Dale and Annie in Laura's dream.

Why we would return to these scenes only after Laura's death would be a mystery to me unless they were pertaining to the meeting and Dale's attempted intervention with the ring.

* Why is Pierre Tremond still here if Leland is long dead by then?

Answer: As I mentioned earlier, I believe it is required for the abstraction of the past host to be present at the meeting concerning the new one.

* Why introduce a missing/past FBI agent into the story if the Lodge meeting did not also take place in the (far) past?

Well Chet Desmond was only introduced to the story because of MacLachlan refusing to be in it for too long. All in all Lynch created Chet as far more balanced individual. While he was recruited ala Phillip Jeffries for the White Lodge Dale fell by the wayside. Once again, the scene with Jeffries was written with the intention to occur on the final week of Laura’s death NOT closer to Teresa’s. Lynch probably altered it for time/editing consideration. Yet the meeting was located here for a reason originally. Changed, it still doesn’t matter when the meeting takes place if it is the future. It shows a switch from future to past.

And to me that meeting is still about Dale Cooper being BOB’s new host and BOB’s attempts to get Laura once again. If Mike/MFAP was the Jumping Man it would be more likely he would have clapped his hands to retire himself not BOB. Also Mike/MFAP look startled by BOB’s actions and the boy begins to move his foot at this announcement which hardly seem integral pertaining to Mike being retired.

 
This scene also does not take place after the finale. Laura said she would not see Dale again for 25 years later. This concretes that until that specific 25 years later she would not see Dale Cooper. Laura also seemed partially aware of what would happen to Cooper, ie: her sign symbol for a tree and her doppelganger’s fear of him.

I'm also suspicious of the ending scene from the script. It could be a fooler.

I certainly don't mean to club the beauty of the films to death. To me they remain even more beautiful when they are strengthened with a reason. While it is beautiful not knowing at the same time Lynch does have a meaning behind what he does. He has stated that weirdness for weirdness sake does not work. There is a tale of someone coming across Lynch doing rushes and stating something like "Oh! That's what I meant by that!" He does have a reason. FWWM is my favorite film. I've watched it on my Birthday for years. Some things just start to make sense after a while. For me to think they make sense I have to review everything available and if they hold up still I'm confident of them. Whether they make sense to others or if they believe them isn't a high point on my list. :) I just find that since most of them have not been thought of they should be mentioned at least once.

a few points in the discussion still dont hold for me.
forgiveness- is the fact that the jumping man is superimposed over jefferies possibly/seemingly pointing at coop before he starts talking and then what he says, "who do you...", and that the jumping man's hair is black the only real evidence youre using to connect him to coop? to me this is not compelling. 

ive always interpeted the scene that plays over jefferies' disconnceted dialogue to have taken place in the past, as if this was the meeting jefferies is speaking at that moment in philadephia. why would bowie be talking over images from a future event?

i know time doesnt exists there, so if taken to conclusion there really are no rules given that consession, but in terms of the film itself, i dont think the image and the sound should be disassociated. jefferies says himself, "i found something...i went to one of their meetings." this is past tense. wouldnt it be more logical to conclude the meeting shown to be the same?

this also one of the reasons i cant agree with pierre being a representation of leland. beyond showing up early in season two when leland was still alive, his appearance in the double R parking lot and the motel parking lot show him to be an entity appart from leland. in fact i think the grandson/grandmother is a more portent issure with this character. im not saying theres no relationship or connection with leland, but i think youre streching to say he's a future representation of another character when he could simply be another lodge spirit himself. i believe, and ive heard other people say this in the past, he's most probably the magician referenced in the poem recited many times in the series and film. again, im trying to look at this with a bit of occum's razor and trying not project but to interpet by looking at what the work itself says and what its rules are as regards to its meanings and abstractions, not what the original script says or the fact scenes were shot but not used or how it might have been editted earlier. this also cancels any retconning between the series and the film.

I wonder if the Jumping Man was a late addition to FWWM. He obviously wasn't added during post-production, so I don't think he has anything to do with the rearrangement of the Judy storyline, but the script never mentions him either, which is kind of strange.

Interestingly, though, the script contains one line spoken by a certain "Mike", which seems like an odd mix-up when all other lines by the MFAP are explicitly attributed to "the Man from Another Place". I wonder whether Mike refers to the Jumping Man and whether he had dialogue in the original script...

I should have differentiated between personal interpretations of FWWM (a thick beauty) and anything professing to be a definitive interpretation (a sadness). My understanding of INLAND EMPIRE is totally abstract but it works for me. I don't believe it's a conventional mystery that has a neat solution. I love the sensation of being lost in a vast, abstract world. The transitions from one layer to another are exciting to me.  

I spent years feeling frustrated that Fire Walk With Me ended so abruptly leaving so many unanswered questions but at the end of the day, that's why I'm still obsessed with it (almost) twenty years later.  

Don't get me wrong, I think speculation is wonderful but the bulk of it is clumsy and often at odds with the logic of the film itself. 

i'm pretty much with you there faceintheleavessssss

I think that much of FWWM isn't merely Lynch going into abstractness (much of it is though): I think the Blue Rose, Judy and such like are deliberately placed (as has been suggested elsewhere, maybe in this thread, but I havent read it all oops sorry) as a cheeky nod to rapid fans such as ourselves who clamour for a crumb of hint or whatnot. Blue rose being placed as a deliberate reference to a hinted mystery that was never intended to be elaborated upon, let alone resolved. It is a fan targeted maaaaguffin, playful fuel for the fires of overeager fan speculation. Or rather, the joke is on us. FWWM is most interesting of Lynch's films because it is the only one (Excluding Elephant Man and Straight Story, which are based on true stories, therefore certain levels of abstractness are forbidden) that has a predemand for a narrative, what with it being based on the twin peaks universe, and the imposition of the last seven days of Laura Palmer's life, details of which the viewer may already have with them. For a film that supposedly implies a rigid structure, i think Lynch walks the tightrope wonderfully of fulfilling this narrative obligation whilse indulging in the abstractions that make his art so fulfilling. Sorry i have not said much on this thread's namesake, but I don't think i have a theory on it beyond what I say above Re 'a nod'

 Le sigh... I have given other evidence: the red suit, the mask and the connection between the fact that it was Dale’s evil side that left the Lodge while the good Dale remained in the Lodge. Please go back and further read my posts for longer explanations of these things.

Given Lynch’s habit of popping up an image related to what is being discussed (The suspects when Cooper throws the rocks at the bottles (ep 02),Laura’s corpse’s appearance when Jacoby says she allowed herself to be killed (ep 08), Leo sweating it out in the woods while Bobby theorizes he is having the time of his life (ep 29) The images of Lil when Chet is describing Cole’s codes and the blue rose when Sam mentions Chet going back to the Trailer Park (FWWM)) I think that the Jumping Man is popped up when Jeffries is questioning Dale’s identity for a reason. To not think so seems to ignore Lynch’s directing style.

 Okay. So you don’t believe that the image and the sound should be disassociated? Why then is the theory that Jeffries questioning Dale’s identity not strong in association with the image given, that of the Jumping Man?

To Jeffries the meeting has already happened. He could very well use the past tense since for him it did occur chronologically before the visit to Cole and the change in time. Just as Dale telling Laura not to take the ring would have happened for him after he had come to Twin Peaks and solved Laura's murder.

“Listen all, listen carefully. I’ve been to one of their meetings” We see the Jumping Man. This pertains to Cooper, the man that Jeffries obviously doesn’t like.
 

“Elga, baby, damn, no! I found something” is said when the image of the boy putting the mask on once again is seen. This is followed by the monkey, a deep ominous sound and Jeffries saying “And then there they were”. This would fit in with the reversing to a past time theory. And then there they were being in reference to going back to a time when Leland and Laura were alive. Leland being represented by the boy and Laura by the monkey.

  There is no doubt in my mind that that boy represents Leland possessed. Possibly his consciousness? As I mentioned before he is an abstraction, seperate from Leland just as the corn is an abstraction of pain and sorrow. Seperate but the same.  In the episode where we meet the boy and his Grandmother we first learn that Leland knew BOB when he was just a little boy. When the boy wearing the mask says to Laura “The man behind the mask is looking for the book with the pages torn out” he means both BOB, who is using Leland’s face as a mask, and Leland, who is in a way hiding behind a mask in the form of the child, the child being representative of Leland.  Watch the series and film again and note that whenever the boy wears the mask BOB is using the body of his host and whenever the boy is free from the mask BOB isn’t.

Considering the complexities of the Lodges and the possibility of time travel therein, I don't think that it is stretching things to believe that the Convenience Store scene is from the future anymore than it would be stretching things to believe that Dale in Laura's dream is from this same time as is Annie. Their appearances and that they are from a time linked to the finale is a fact. So based on this an assumption that the meeting could have occured near the TP finale seems possible. This makes it possible that the Jumping Man would represent Dale Cooper possessed. The film is a prequel and a sequel. It creates a circle.

That the Jumping Man has a face similar to the mask of the boy and that BOB seems to affect both characters during the convenience store scene is at least strong enough to suggest that BOB is connected to them and they are somewhat his puppets.

To me the Magician is Cooper so if you believe the Jumping Man is the Magician this connects to my theory in a way. He is in the Lodge stuck between 2 worlds. The last episode was called “Beyond Life and Death”. He is seeking a way out. If Laura is possessed he will not come to Twin Peaks. He is chanting out "Fire Walk With Me" in the hopes that Laura will let BOB inside this time since she will not have the protection the ring offers. In a double reference it is his one chance out. The boy is an abstraction of Leland's possession. He was stated to be studying magic. A Magician is BOB's host, possibly in reference to Faust, another magician who sold his soul to the devil. In the poem's case the Magician is Dale Cooper. The item they hold in their hands is a wand of some type which resembles a tree. It links with Laura giving Dale the sign language for a tree in the finale and hinting Dale would be either stuck in the Lodge for 25 years or possessed.

Call it what you will if something isn’t stated for sure it remains a theory. Your interpretation is a theory also regardless if you take what is shown in the series and not the script. I look at it this way also or else I wouldn’t bother. I know that the deleted scenes are not permanent so I look at the theory to see if it still holds, regardless of the deleted scenes. By your reasoning, and I’ve mentioned this before, never in the series does it state that BOB eats anything but fear and pleasure. By this you should look at the corn as only representing pain and sorrow since it never states it is anything else. Why would BOB desire it then?

 My theories stand fast outside of the deleted scenes as well.

I’m confused by the statement “this also cancels any retconning between the series and the film”. I think that there is far more retconning between the series and the film without the theory that Dale Cooper changed the past somehow and the events of FWWM are different than certain statements in the series because of this.

 He is a late addition. This however seems more connected to the masks, the monkey and the boy. The masks are new, as is the boy wearing one and the monkey. Also MFAP is referenced as being Mike in the script. They are one and the same.

This is why Laura was left with the feeling that she had seen Phillip/Mike before.  She had seen him by the fact that she had met the MFAP, what I perceive just looks like a smaller version of Mike, in her dream. Laura was gifted. She knew it was BOB and not her father tormenting her. It was one of the reasons why BOB wanted her. By this logic, it supports that Jeffries could identify the Jumping Man as Dale. He knew the essence of the creature more than it's physical self. Looked at closely Phillip Gerard looks nothing like the MFAP but Laura somehow knew they were the same. 

 I agree with this. The fact that so many people assume that the garmonbozia is something both BOB and Mike/MFAP wanted seems a contradiction and I’d like it to be questioned along with several other items. This is why I want to post some of my theories.

I also have to state that I believe that the scene of Laura and Dale in the Red Room at the end of FWWM occurs directly after Laura's death. Only new visitors to the Red Room seem to sit in that chair. This explains the change in her expression at death to the one when the plastic was opened. Her ascension created the look of stillness.

So yes, in that sense I definitely agree that too much analysis ruins to beauty of the movie. On the other hand, I do support the efforts to make sense of this movie at least on a structural level, because let's face it: FWWM is a very confusing movie. It's far easier to enjoy if you have some rudimentary sense of direction.

 please, at least give me the credit of already having read the entire thread thoroughly (no offense meant Cooped!) before posting. obviously if i saw one of your pieces of evidence was the hair, i also read about your interpretation of the suit, the mask, etc. i mentioned the hair as shorthand for appearance because to me its a spurious theory. but yes, i should have been more explicit and just said appearance. i apologize for that. regardless, you answered my question as yes.

 To me the reasons and answers make the beauty. The Jumping Man, the monkey etc... would just be silly without a reason. For them to mean something else strengthens the message and beauty. It would be like the answer to the universe and the discovery of the question from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy any other way.

 I’m sorry. Since you had not mentioned the masks and such, as you could easily have done, I made a logical assumption. You did not give me the credit of having considered more aspects of the Jumping Man so how could I give you credit for having read the complete thread? Instead it looks like those theories may have held some merit to you but you did not want to mention them. It seemed more amusing to mention the hair and disregard it because it was a silly object. I know it was but it held merit when it was being argued that the Jumping Man could not be Cooper because of his hair!?! While that in itself was a shallow argument I at least tried to produce a counter argument on why, by this reasoning, it couldn’t be Mike either.

To say that my answer was yes is just as ignorant and foolish as you believe my assumption that you didn't read my posts is. My reply/answer was to read my past posts and that the other evidence was the masks, the suit and the fact that the evil doppelganger of Dale was the one that entered the world possessed as BOB certainaly  NOT  just that Jeffries pointing at Dale and the hair was my only evidence. If you lump it all as appearance you are depriving it of it's symbols which are important. To say they are only "appearance" is to look at it only on a shallow level. Besides these were in reference to Sourdust asking for an explanation on why the Jumping Man was meant to resemble Dale.

 The fact is that David Lynch made FWWM. When we consider it we have to base it on his work in the series alone. Remember this is a man who will often completely change a script he had no hand in writing. We also must consider that he has a large hand in every aspect of his films creation. The Jumping Man appears in FWWM and FWWM was David's baby so it pertains to Lynch's directing style alone.

It is a double edge sword. I find your theory also too colored by your personal interpretation. When is any theory not? Yet I am left with the feeling that I am being condescended to and almost any evidence I suggest believed to be too silly by superficial reasons. I saw under a seperate thread, JFK, that you supported what Maddy said about the lumberjacks in the film possibly being the lumberjacks from the SD. This was a theory completely negated by the fact that Lynch contradicted his own daughter's diary for Laura yet you were willing to accept it as a possibility despite proof otherwise. How was this only accepting what was in the film and series if you are so objective? Or did it merely correspond with your own personal theories and not pose a threat? Let's not kid ourselves. I will admit to having a mote in mine eye if you are willing to admit the same.

 The time of the end of FWWM was being called into question. Sourdust suggested that it was 25 years later. This would make little sense since Dale in that dream was much older. Faceintheleaves suggested that it took place at the end of the finale. This made no sense since Laura said she would not see Dale for another 25 years. I have at least offered statements from the series to support my claim that it happened at another time.

I will disagree that the scene occurs in the White Lodge. It is the Red Room that we most likely are seeing. That it would be in the White Lodge would be disregarding all that we have been told about it. The MFAP stated it was a waiting room, nothing more. I am using facts to make this “assumption”. These are not deleted scenes or editing.

Once more I must state that Laura states that she would not see Dale for 25 years. That would seem to negate the theory that Cooper went to the White Lodge also as his appearance 25 years later, much older, would also do. He had obviously physically aged while Laura had not. The ending of FWWM would implicate that Laura went to the White Lodge while Dale remained in the Lodge.

Please tell me how Leland entering the Lodge at the end of FWWM contradicts the grandson representing Leland? I would like to hear it.

 Thank you for this especially since my theory wasn't "compelling" to you.

I would like to ask something that I am confused about if time travel does not play a role in Phillip Jeffries appearance. Give me one solid reason, supported by the film and series, that explains how Jeffries knows Dale Cooper, why he questions if Cole and Albert know who he is and subsequently why Jeffries seems to dislike Dale.

Do NOT use the suggestion that Chet was a dream version of Dale and the sequences featuring Desmond are a dream by Coop. This theory makes even worse sense than the time travel one given the facts that:

Chet is still referenced even when Dale is present

Dale investigated Desmond’s disappearance.

Carl mentions Desmond.

It wouldn’t explain Jeffries fear/anger at Cooper.

I am left with the feeling that the theory I suggest regarding Dale's connection to the Jumping Man is believed to be "spurious" because frankly it does not shed Cooper in a very flattering light. Would the theory that Dale was possibly tainted by evil when he was himself and not possessed by BOB sound any better? To me TP was equally about the fall of Dale Cooper and the triumph of Laura Palmer.

Hmm, I'm getting a bit confused about what exactly we're discussing now. However,  I will say that I'm a strong proponent of the "dream theory". In fact, I think it's what makes Jeffries' meeting with Cooper possible in the first place.

The dream extends from the shot of Teresa's body up until the Twin Peaks sign appears, but you have to accept that Cooper changes identity about halfway through. During the Teresa Banks investigation, he's Chester Desmond. Upon realizing that the green ring was the pivotal element in the Banks case, he reverts back to being Cooper. You may find this odd but I've yet to find a theory that betters the dream theory in terms of economy and explanatory power. It's just too neat not to be true: the oddities in the Teresa Banks investigation, the doubling, the unexplained disappearances, the foreshadowing of Cooper's fate,... You're welcome to challenge me on it :)

Apart from all that, the dream theory is necessary to explain Cooper's meeting with Jeffries, I think. How else could they meet if not through a dream? Twin Peaks (the show) was the first to establish that people could meet in their dreams without regard to time (Laura and Cooper in the first red room scene), and later during FWWM, this possibility is confirmed again when Laura meets Cooper and Annie. Jeffries showing up and disappearing without a trace is just too weird to happen in the "real world". It's too weird to not be commented upon by Albert, or not be brought up by other characters again.

At one point Jeffries literally says "we live inside a dream", so that's some pretty convincing evidence right there. Some people have even suggested that the line "who do you think this is there" is Jeffries trying to make Cooper aware that he is dreaming, that he is the dreamer.

Btw I'm not necessarily against the idea of The Jumping Man being Cooper (even if I prefer my own theory about him being Mike), or the idea of Cooper being corrupted. I think it was you, Forgiveness, who suggested that Cooper had perhaps suppressed his evil side for so long that he was more open to Bob's corruption than Laura ever was (but correct me if I'm wrong). It's true that he was not a balanced individual in that sense. If you compare him with Laura, Cooper was all "love" and almost no "fear".

  The theory that Dale is Chet still seems highly unlikely and still highly more convuluted than Jeffries being from the future. Why would they state that Chester Desmond had disappeared while Dale is present? I don't see too many facts correlating to Dale's future. The gag with the glass and Sam seems just that: a gag. Although it does show that Chet had a mean streak and was akin with his darker impulses.

This theory seems more made by those who have a problem with Coop not being center stage and at the helm of the Teresa Banks murder. I take Chet Desmond has his own character there is never any reason not to. His identity is never questioned. He is connected to Jeffries appearance/existence in the film. 2 agents gone missing. With my luck I'll get called on this but Chet Desmond was going to be center stage in the second film. This doesn't indicate he was Cooper.

The Chet is Dale theory is still paper thin. It also doesn’t explain Jeffries anger and fear of Dale. Why would Jeffries question Dale’s identity in regards to Chet? He isn’t trying to make him wake up or aware. He seems to not to want to have a whole lot to do with Cooper other than to accuse him. Jeffries seems to be there to try to talk about the meeting that happened. If this was all a dream why would Jeffries want Dale to wake up? He'd desire the opposite until he had told his tale.

There is also no indication that Dale has ever woken, as opposed to in MD when Diane does. For that matter there is no indication that Dale has fallen asleep either.

I've got to say that I think that Chet was created by Lynch has a flipside of Dale though. He is a better version and more balanced.

  Laura was able to face the worst in herself and choose love. Cooper did not love himself, all that he was good and bad, so in a way he was not full of love at all but rather in constant fear of the evil he felt. Moreover Dale's actions seem more stemming from a desire to be "perfect" than love. For a girl who had been sexaully and mentally assaulted for years, Laura was far stronger and far more interesting IMHO. She thought she was evil/bad but was proved to be otherwise.

Okay.

Getting back on track for a moment.

I just read that David told Martha Nochimson that the selection of the name Judy was random. It wasn't a nod to Judy Garland or anyone in particular.

I have no problem with Desmond taking center stage in the Banks investigation. In fact, I would have loved to have seen more material with Desmond as I've always found this sequence to be the most interesting part of FWWM. Saying that we don't like you theory just because it's unflattering to Cooper is a little bit condescending, though. The suggestion seems to be that we can't handle logic, but keep in mind that it's just your logic.

You seem to be a little exasperated by others' unwillingness to accept your (somewhat definitive) interpretation of FWWM, but I think you should step back once in a while and try out alternative perspectives rather than being so dismissive to anything that contradicts your view. I think you added a lot of valuable material since you started posting here, Forgiveness (the masks, the boy, Cooper, etc), but I don't see how we can discuss this any further if it's just going to devolve into an "I'm right and you don't make sense" argument. I feel the conversation is already creeping towards that tone.

So, if you really want me to explain why I think the dream theory works I'm happy to write it all out, but then don't just focus your attention on refuting it point by point... Right now I'm feeling like it won't be worth the trouble, unless you're willing to seriously entertain the idea.

the last post i made on that thread speaks for itself but is also applicable to this discussion:
 
"... possibly lynch was using a detail previously written in the published diary(and possibly a detail his daughter wrote, not him) as a way of establishing a continuity. of course, only people like us would actually discuss it in detail, whereas i can see lynch just using them for the feeling they project and for the fact that the fictional laura, in the secret diary, wrote of having a strange encounter with woodsmen. i still say they have something to do with the log lady's husband, but that just conjecture on my part."

im not talking theory here. this is a what if? at no point do i build an interpetation as definitive and therefore something that requires an alternate narrative. all i would really say on this point is that we know there are two bearded men present at the meeting, and since they are billed as woodsmen, and another character is billed as the electrician, their titles may point to a function of their character. and thats it. but as they are not explictitly referenced again, i can not agree with an analysis of the film(and series, tho FWWM seems to be the main point of discussion here) that finds it necessary to use a detail like this along with others to make an entire mythology that necessitates basic subjective assumptions in order to create an alternate narrative. i dont see a mote for me to admit. do you?

Going with the 'Forgiveness' theory of events in the meeting, and scenes from the script (which I have never read)... could it be that Jeffries unexpectedly leaves due to the 'hand clap moment' changing things around? Meaning that BOB claps, a new possibility of getting Laura emerges, and thus Jeffries is no longer in the timeline, no longer part of the Lodge?

Would that explain why he suddenly appears in the South American hotel, similar in how it seems that the end of the film would have focused on the mirror scene from the finale?