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Twin Peaks & FWWM
> What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did?
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| 1. Monday, February 18, 2008 10:24 PM |
| MisterGrey |
What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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Watching Twin Peaks with my mum recently (as she is the one who got me into it in the first place), I found myself re-writing in my head (and then saying aloud) various plot elements and occurrances I would have done/handled differently had I been writing the show. First and foremost, Windom Earle would not have been seen until Episode 29. In each episode up until that point we would have somehow been introduced to a tape recorder containing a message from Earle. Under no circumstances would we have glimpsed him until the kidnapping at Miss Twin Peaks. And speaking of which, Audrey would have won instead of Annie, and thus been kidnapped. During one of the painful James/Evelyn sequences, apropos of nothing, BOB would have materialized, made some non sequiter reference to James' role in Laura's life, and proceded to murder James, Evelyn, and her brother/lover/henchman. Brutally. Leo would've died when Hank plugged him, instead of subjecting the viewers to the painful and unecessary brain-dead storyline. Boby and Shelly live openly as a couple, and Shelly begins to learn about Bobby's dark past with Laura Palmer. There would have been no Civil War for Ben Horne. His depression witnessed while watching the film reels would have led to a more "traditional" depression, albeit in the Twin Peaks way, with a few fleeting glimpses into Ben's past and what made he and Jerry what they are today, including insight into the dichotomy of his relationship with Laura vis a vis his relationship with Audrey. I think defeated, soul-searching Ben Horne was much more interesting and tragic than "play with my action heroes" Ben Horne. Speaking of the Hornes, Johnny's mystery would have been more thoroughly explored. In a deleted scene we learn that Johnny has intentionally regressed himself due to some childhood trauma. After Laura's death I would have re-visited this idea and found a way to bring it to the foreground. I'm not quite sure what I would have done with the plotline, but I would not have chucked it onto the back burner. Did I mention that BOB kills James? Brutally? I know there are some more bouncing around inside my head. How about the rest of you?
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| 2. Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:12 AM |
| Evenreven |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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The main things I would have done: -nixed Evelyn completely -had Donna meet a mysterious character at Harold's funeral -nixed Lana and Little Nicky -had James and Joey Paulson investigate Josie for the Bookhouse Boys. -had Audrey taken to the Lodge -kept Earle hidden, he only makes a call to Cooper, thus in the process eliminating the whole Leo shepherded around the cabin storyline. -fixed the chess game to something that actually made sense. -nixed glowing tattoos and Owl Cave and instead let the Log Lady find the map in the woods with Coop's help. -Annie's out. Even though I like her a lot, she was basically just an Audrey backup. -Ernie Niles is out. -Pete hangs out with Janek Pulaski, and they talk about the mill and not going to work anymore. -More Ronnette. More Sarah. More Mike. More Johnny Horne and Dr. Jacoby. -No civil war. No good Ben. -And most importantly: No "who's my daddy anyway" plot. Aaargh! For the obsessive version, check out this thread.
"What credit card do you want to put that on?" "Caash, prease."
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| 3. Tuesday, February 19, 2008 1:09 PM |
| Faust |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I don't want anything changed about the show I like each and every storyline it's all great in my eyes. I wouldn't change anything about the show but it would be cool if David lynch would return to Twin Peaks in some form. I think the best way to do it would be in book form. With that whole see you 25 years later thing, maybe the book could have stuff going on in the present time and 25 years later.
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| 4. Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:47 PM |
| Audrey Horne |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
Member Since 6/30/2007 Posts:259
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Oh, MisterGrey!! You have no idea... come and add all your great ideas to the link evenreven posted. Right now, it feels like a full time job on my part. Weed through all the posts though, the revisions don't start until the fifth or sixth page I think.
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| 5. Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:50 PM |
| 3519273540 |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I don't like the idea that Audrey wins and gets kidnapped. I had enough of her as "damsel in distress", she grew up in season 2 and deserved better than that. I like her ending up at the bank. I'm not even convinced she was in the pageant. She wasn't in the "dance routine", she just gave a speech. I assumed she used her clout at the great northern to get a platform at the pageant to speak about the forest.
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| 6. Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:04 PM |
| Evenreven |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
Member Since 12/5/2006 Posts:342
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Seriously? Deciding a man she met two days ago is the man of her life? Working for her father, the same man she loathed only a few days ago? Not to mention that the first act of the fairy tale narrative had been set up with Audrey as princess, something they suddenly had to drop mid-plot because Cooper couldn't be her prince anymore. The main reason why the series is directionless in the middle of the second season is that Frost, Peyton and Engels had to downplay the Audrey/Dale arc to not give false hopes to the audiences about a romance on the horizon. I'm not saying you should dislike Heather Graham and Billy Zane, I like them a lot myself. But both Annie and Jack were merely decent attempts to save the series from the misery that Kyle MacLachlan and Lara Flynn Boyle had put the series in. Listen to Mark Frost on the new documentary. He's diplomatic about it, but it's pretty obvious what he thinks of having the flow of his narrative disrupted by a couple of youngsters high on their own stardom. Not to mention Sherilyn Fenn's vocal - and very public - protests about the plot development in the past. You're free to think whatever you want, of course. I'm just surprised that anyone can think it's a good idea to drop themes that's been painstakingly established. Billy Zane was pretty good, but there was really nowhere to go with the character. Ben's past behaviour - including a wide variety of suspected felonies - is suddenly okay in everyone's book after some delusional hijinx. I don't buy it.
"What credit card do you want to put that on?" "Caash, prease."
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| 7. Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:31 PM |
| 3519273540 |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I think Ben tried to turn things around. Yeah, it was pretty quick, but it's TV, I can let that go. I'm not saying that every aspect of Audrey's story in season 2 was great, but it was certainly not among the worst. And I am not intrigued in the least by the suggested alternative of a creepy sexual relationship with Cooper. I think it would have hurt both of their characters in irredeemable ways. Regardless of what the reason was for not going down that road, I do think it was the right decision.
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| 8. Thursday, February 21, 2008 7:07 AM |
| Evenreven |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I don't think the suggested alternative is a creepy romance. I'm not even sure it would be a romance per se, but they would continue to be in love - like they had already been for many episodes (episode 9 makes it abundantly clear that it goes both ways). Frost's main concept of it was allegedly a teacher/pupil thing, which I could see working. I don't think a "romance" would have to include an FBI agent drooling over a high school girl.
"What credit card do you want to put that on?" "Caash, prease."
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| 9. Thursday, February 21, 2008 2:11 PM |
| 12rainbow |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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Audrey's love at first sight for Jack is totally romantic, and appropriate for a teenager. When she met Cooper it was 'OMG a handsome FBI agent.' Enter tall, dark handsome (wealthy, charming) stranger ('OMG, hottt!)-> heartbreak is cured. Happens in real life all the time. Audrey was pretty spontaneous about wanting to fall in love, lose her virginity, and run away with whoever from day 1.
Cooper is physically attracted to Audrey (who wouldn't be) and cares for her like she's this fragile, china doll. And she has a wicked, schoolgirl crush on him (duh) but he doesn't meet her passion halfway. It would have been an interesting affair, but she was way too immature for him. There's more of a symbiotic balance with the Coop/Annie, Audrey/Jack relationships.
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| 10. Friday, February 22, 2008 5:30 AM |
| Evenreven |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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Oh, I agree about that. Good post. My gripe is something else. I think the change from Coop-Audrey to Coop-Annie and Audrey-Jack makes a lot of the previous plotting irrelevant. Also, the new love interests are too similar, in my view. Annie's virtually Coop's mirror image - dark past, innocent sense of humour, broad smile, etc - and that's less interesting to me than a not quite friendship not quite love affair thing Coop has going with Audrey. Episode 25 is one of my favourites, and I definitely think the attempt at rescuing the story with new love interests was very well done. I just think it hurt the main story as a whole.
"What credit card do you want to put that on?" "Caash, prease."
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| 11. Friday, February 22, 2008 12:01 PM |
| MisterGrey |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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My problem wasn't so much with Audrey falling for John as it was-- 1) Leaving the Coop storyline un-addressed. They just kind of dropped it with one line of dialogue on Audrey's part and then shuttled her right along into the John storyline. 2) John had no substance as a character. Now don't get me wrong--Billy Zane is the man. Put him into any other role on this show and it would've been legendary (Billy Zane as Windom Earle? Admit it. You're intrigured). But John was really just a pretty-boy cardboard cutout. A male Mary Sue of the highest degree. Looks aside, I don't see Audrey replacing Cooper with him. Too much time had been invested in the Audrey/Coop storyline for them to have handled it the way they did--especially with John JUSTICE Wheeler thrown into the mix.
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| 12. Friday, February 22, 2008 9:09 PM |
| Audrey Horne |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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| QUOTE: Audrey's love at first sight for Jack is totally romantic, and appropriate for a teenager. When she met Cooper it was 'OMG a handsome FBI agent.' Enter tall, dark handsome (wealthy, charming) stranger ('OMG, hottt!)-> heartbreak is cured. Happens in real life all the time. Audrey was pretty spontaneous about wanting to fall in love, lose her virginity, and run away with whoever from day 1.
Cooper is physically attracted to Audrey (who wouldn't be) and cares for her like she's this fragile, china doll. And she has a wicked, schoolgirl crush on him (duh) but he doesn't meet her passion halfway. It would have been an interesting affair, but she was way too immature for him. There's more of a symbiotic balance with the Coop/Annie, Audrey/Jack relationships.
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I actually disagree 100% with this. I can see it on a superficial level -roll identities and setting up the dynamic. But the twist of Twin Peaks was peeling the layers away and revealing no one is what they appear to be on the surface. If anything the pilot sets up Audrey not as a romantic but a calculating schemer, and yes, Cooper might be attractive to her, but he in essence captures her and makes her look more inward. It's still playing around with the school girl crush tease until the rug is pulled out from us and Audrey is revealed to be crying while watching Leland dance -the surprise there being the town bad girl is actually the most innocent and pure.
The refusing to sleep with her is for tension and deepening the bond- the flirting arc tease is now replaced and deeper and darker and more complicated (again, the essense of what Twin Peaks was all about) -and clearly they wouldn't set this up as a crush by having Lynch shoot Fenn praying to Cooper, and intercut him in his dreams from bed. What does it do narratively to have it be just a silly crush on her end? Her longing heart was the essence to the character. And the whole fun of it was Cooper couldn't stop thinking of her -"Can't think of clues, but on the content of her smile," and his cloudiness also puts her at risk and draws on his mistake from Caroline. (2.06) Yes, it would have been messy and complicated -but that would have been the fun. And I don't see the immature angle at all in terms of Audrey -the writers, particularly Peyton loved writing for her because she was supposed to be wise beyond her years, just impetuous and impulsive ("impatient, impatient for her life to begin and the world to catch up with her dreams"; "Laura always got her way ...just like you.") On paper, I'm sure they didn't plan on Cooper bedding a teenager -most likely the chemistry leapped out between the two actors -and the public latched on -Fenn and MacLachlan were the two favorites for most of the run. The "symbiotic balance" is nice in real life but not on TV -and Annie and Wheeler only balanced them because A) Audrey and Cooper were the stars of the show with the most press and therefore needed love interest plots, and B) there wasn't much time left so they needed to expediate the love interests and bring both pairs together quickly with their respective new mate. So each new love interest would be as easily drawn to and unified with Audrey and Cooper. The result was no sense of satisfaction because it felt like it wasn't earned but merely plot contrivance. Watching it in real time with an episode a week, there was this incredible yearning from many of the fans -anxious to see the Cooper/Audrey scene of the week and what would happen. And I would say since Peaks is about light and dark and the two flipflopping, Cooper and Audrey were more in keeping with the theme (The Good Cop, The Bad Girl and peeling those layers away and delving into their pysches). And since the continued Cooper/Audrey saga (no matter what is was) -was only halted because of MacLachlan, it is obvious proof that is was part of the intended story as a whole. Isn't this the same thing if Ray Wise decided, "Oh no, I disagree. Leland would never have killed Laura and I don't want it to go in that direction, so come up with a different solution. Sorry." Something most likely was going on behind the scenes -and it probably had to do with Fenn's temperment and the amount of press she was getting, the award nominations etc, and becoming the fan favorite. But MacLachlan's excuse about it compromising Cooper's character seems out of the blue in comparision of how he played the early Cooper/Audrey scenes -and hell the original draft of 1.06 had them at breakfast together after finding her naked in her bed, so the writing was on the wall back then that Cooper would be tormented and conficted with his feelings for her. Bottom line, the two were always supposed to be connected narratively. And to me, when this stopped, I stopped caring.
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| 13. Friday, February 22, 2008 11:15 PM |
| 12rainbow |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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| QUOTE: Now don't get me wrong--Billy Zane is the man. Put him into any other role on this show and it would've been legendary (Billy Zane as Windom Earle? Admit it. You're intrigured). But John was really just a pretty-boy cardboard cutout. A male Mary Sue of the highest degree. |
Once again, for realism's sake, when is there ever closure with unrequited crushes like that? Audrey picked up the pieces and got on. Another realistic scenario: Cooper gets jealous of JJW, changes his mind, and seduces Audrey away from him. :)) Oh, yeah. It could definitely happen. JJW was just pretty enough to be a distraction, but who could really replace Cooper?!
I would have LOVED to see Zane do a "Collector" from Demon Knight-type character instead of Windom. Wouldn't it have been funny if Jack turned out to be a villain? Oh, if only there was a Season 3. Then evil Cooper could ravish Audrey, too, as has been suggested many times, and she could be BOB's last Major Briggs would then save the day.
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| 14. Saturday, February 23, 2008 3:59 PM |
| Ivan Sputnik |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I would have kept Sylvia and Johnnie Horne in the series, at least as minor background characters. Their absence is puzzling, especially during the Audrey-at-One-Eyed-Jacks plot or when Ben is in jail. I like the theory that Sylvia took Johnnie out of town to visit some specialists.
The question is, Where have you gone?
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| 15. Saturday, February 23, 2008 7:48 PM |
| Aniblckbrn |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I think throughout the series it is obvious that Coop and Audrey love each other, but at the risk of sounding like a cliche, having them sleep together would have ruined it for them as well as the audience. One of those actual "to get any more involved would destroy our friendship" situations. Like some other posters suggested, I would have like to have seen the whole Little Nicky thing left out, along with the whole Lana Milford line. I LOVED the idea of BOB appearing to James, Evelyn (another character I love to hate), and Evelyn's lover and brutally murdering all three. Ha!!! I would have liked to have seen a bit more explanation of JJW's job, the reason his colleague was murdered, and what went/goes on in Brazil. The feeling i got is that JJW is somehow connected with the same mission as the Bookhouse Boys. Fighting evil without a cape. Maybe there's a wormhole between some dark rainforest in Brazil and Glastonbury Grove.........
"Sleep deprivation is a one-way ticket to temporary psychosis."
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| 16. Wednesday, March 5, 2008 8:53 AM |
| TremorMilo |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I love Civil War Ben! It's one of the few goofy Season 2 plot devices that really worked for me, perhaps just because it involves one of the series' best actors. The only Ben story I hated was the one involving Donna's family (perhaps just because it involved one of the series' worst actresses).
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| 17. Sunday, March 16, 2008 2:21 PM |
| Modéus |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I would have changed the idea that it's Coopers doppelganger that is possesed by Bob and exchanged with the real Cooper. I like the idea that you meet a shade of yourself INSIDE and ONLY INSIDE the Black Lodge. I think it would have been better if it would have been the real Cooper possesed by Bob and not his doppelganger. I would have reduced Super-Nadines strenght and skipped the scene where a guy is thrown into the skies.
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| 18. Sunday, March 16, 2008 3:13 PM |
| Laura was a patient of mine |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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What makes you think that Coop's doppelganger is less Cooper than the "real" Cooper Modeus? I thought it was pretty well established that the doppelganger's are half of the whole person...
That god damn trailer's more popular than Uncle's Day in a whorehouse!
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| 19. Monday, March 17, 2008 10:20 AM |
| Evenreven |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I think so too. If you take the "good Dale is in the Lodge and he can't leave" part literally, it might seem like they're separate entities, but for me that's really stupid and pointless. It's the "shadow self", not a separate character. There is no shadow without the subject. And besides, if they were different people, wouldn't his eyes have the glazed look? I think Annie's speaking metaphorically. That the good Dale can't get out, doesn't mean that it's not Special Agent Dale Cooper, FBI, that smashes his head against the mirror.
Also, some people have used the shooting script where Coop talks to the Little Man in the Lodge after the ending as "evidence" that they're different people. I tend to believe this sequence was cut because it's too literal.
"What credit card do you want to put that on?" "Caash, prease."
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| 20. Monday, March 17, 2008 12:10 PM |
| 3519273540 |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I think the "good Dale" line is literal. That was the way it was portrayed in the finale and FWWM. The line about the "shadow self" is from a non-Lynch episode, I think, so I don't put much weight in it.
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| 21. Monday, March 17, 2008 1:11 PM |
| Montana |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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QUOTE:I would have kept Sylvia and Johnnie Horne in the series, at least as minor background characters. Their absence is puzzling, especially during the Audrey-at-One-Eyed-Jacks plot or when Ben is in jail. I like the theory that Sylvia took Johnnie out of town to visit some specialists.
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I agree 100%. Long-term members will already know but I'll say it again: Johnnie could have been a really fascinating character line to follow. Yes, one wonders about the dynamics of the Horne and Palmer families both individually and as a whole. I think there was plenty of material there without introducing a plethora of unneeded characters later. The initial number and range of characters were great.
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| 22. Monday, March 17, 2008 4:31 PM |
| Evenreven |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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QUOTE:I think the "good Dale" line is literal. That was the way it was portrayed in the finale and FWWM. The line about the "shadow self" is from a non-Lynch episode, I think, so I don't put much weight in it.
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It really depends on your definition of doppelganger. Even if the shadow self line is from a non-Lynch episode his episode follows the same basic outline as Hawk's definition. (1) You enter the Lodges, (2) must pass through the Black Lodge with perfect courage, (3) will meet your shadow self, and (4) your soul will be annihilated if you have less than perfect courage. Sounds like the last episode to me. It's never shown that it's the "bad Dale" who exits the Lodge, only that bad Dale catches up with good Dale. That doesn't mean he's the one who exits. I tend to believe the Lodge is a much more symbolic/metaphorical plane than the regular time/space continuum and thus it doesn't really matter who exits. It's all Dale. And like I said, there are two ways of interpreting Annie's line. Not saying mine is the correct one, only that it makes more sense to me. And it's certainly not excluded by the actual film and series.
"What credit card do you want to put that on?" "Caash, prease."
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| 23. Monday, March 17, 2008 6:51 PM |
| Laura was a patient of mine |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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Yeah, I don't get the point of not going by things from "non Lynch episodes". There are only six Lynch directed episodes and five scripts that Lynch is credited on (he worked on the script for episode 1, but not episode 9, and is not credited for co-writing the last episode, even though he seems to have almost completely rewritten it); if we only go by what Lynch made, very little of the show is canon.
That god damn trailer's more popular than Uncle's Day in a whorehouse!
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| 24. Monday, March 17, 2008 9:36 PM |
| 3519273540 |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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I'm not saying everything in non-lynch episodes is not canon. I'm saying that if a lynch episode and a non-lynch episode contradict each other on a certain point, i go with the lynch episode as the "canonical" version.
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| 25. Tuesday, March 18, 2008 3:10 AM |
| Evenreven |
RE: What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did? |
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But they don't really contradict each other. See my post above. The only discrepancy is if you view the "shadow self" as different from the "doppelganger". And you don't have to. I think they're the same.
What actually contradicts everything is the part about different Lodges being opened by fear and love. That directly contradicts what Hawk says, and Lynch seems to have scrapped this idea entirely. The original script has the door being closed until the point where Windom instils some fear in Annie, a sequence that to me sounds hokey and stupid, and as mentioned completely contradicting Hawk. Lynch went with Hawk's version, and I'm glad he did. As for writing credits, I'll bet good money Barry Pullman didn't think of the "shadow self" concept on his own.
"What credit card do you want to put that on?" "Caash, prease."
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Twin Peaks & FWWM
> What would you have LIKED to have seen happen, as opposed to what did?
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